Pat, I am so overwhelmed with projects that I can say I'd never get to looking at them Thanks for the offer ... can I extend your offer to other cousins (assumes they will send reimbursement and SASE)? Hi Donald; By the way…first off just want to say thanks for all your communications. Not sure if I mentioned this before….but I took a trip a few years back to Pat |
Sure let everyone know...and no reimbursement required as they are all digital photos....
Patrick McCarthy of Halifax , NS
902-443-0257 (home)
902-476-7726 (Cell)
The information below has been captured from the postings at the Forum of the Manchester Manchester , England
I have determined that the following areas near Manchester , Salford, Kersal, Cheetham, Upper Broughton , and Prestwich were areas in which Wroe ancestors resided. I intend to look for living Wroe cousins there in the months ahead. Wish me luck!
My great grandfather grew up in Manchester
MLFHS: Old Stockport Map (Stockport is within Manchester , UK
Thanks for that info. I also looked at the Gen Maps website. Unfortunately, I couldn't see any way of viewing the maps close-up, so in the case of the earlier maps especially, it was impossible to see any detailed areas.
I believe this is William Stopford's map of 1800. I see that Gen maps lists several earlier maps for Cheshire
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~genmaps/
Other MLFHS member -
I don't know where I got this information (probably on this forum!) but Stockport Local History Library have a transcript of the 17th century notebook of a yeoman farmer, John Ryle of High Greaves Farm, and there is an interesting pdf about it at www.mcrh.mmu.ac.uk/pubs/pdf/mrhr_04ii_groves.pdf . As my surname is Etchells, you can well imagine my interest! What I would like to find out however, is a date for the old map shown at the very end of the pdf. I would be grateful for any information about this, and also any advice as to where I might find even older maps of the area.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~genmaps/
Other MLFHS member -
I don't know where I got this information (probably on this forum!) but Stockport Local History Library have a transcript of the 17th century notebook of a yeoman farmer, John Ryle of High Greaves Farm, and there is an interesting pdf about it at www.mcrh.mmu.ac.uk/pubs/pdf/mrhr_04ii_groves.pdf . As my surname is Etchells, you can well imagine my interest! What I would like to find out however, is a date for the old map shown at the very end of the pdf. I would be grateful for any information about this, and also any advice as to where I might find even older maps of the area.
MLFHS: BBC Radio 4: Tracing Your Roots
MLFHS member -
The BBC had a request today for stories for the next series of Tracing Your Roots.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006zbxm
Do have a story for us?
The next series of Tracing Your Roots will be back in September 2011. As always, we're keen to hear whether we can help you with your family history questions.
For this series we're particularly interested if you've hit a brick wall trying to find out more about where family money disappeared to, or came from.
We're also interested in stories of captivity- not for crimes, but perhaps a relative was held against their will in an asylum, convent...or elsewhere.
Finally, is there an intriguing name change in your family history? We'd be keen to find out why.
You can email us at tracingyourroots@bbc.co.uk or by post at Tracing Your Roots, BBC Scotland,111 Holyrood Road , EH88PJ.
MLFHS member -
The BBC had a request today for stories for the next series of Tracing Your Roots.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006zbxm
Do have a story for us?
The next series of Tracing Your Roots will be back in September 2011. As always, we're keen to hear whether we can help you with your family history questions.
For this series we're particularly interested if you've hit a brick wall trying to find out more about where family money disappeared to, or came from.
We're also interested in stories of captivity- not for crimes, but perhaps a relative was held against their will in an asylum, convent...or elsewhere.
Finally, is there an intriguing name change in your family history? We'd be keen to find out why.
You can email us at tracingyourroots@bbc.co.uk or by post at Tracing Your Roots, BBC Scotland,
MLFHS: Conversion of Parish register pdf file into jpegs
Hello, MLFHS member
I have found a pdf file of the early registers of St Peters Hartshead, Yorkshire, where a quite a lot of my DRAKE ancestors appear (from www.archive.org/details/parishregisterof17hart )
With a view to making notes on my copy of these registers, to help sort out all of my Drakes that appear there, I thought it would be a good idea to try and convert the pdf file into an editable format. I managed to convert the pdf file into a Microsoft office word document but the tabs went haywire in the conversion process.
Please can anyone tell me how to convert a pdf file into separate jpeg images of each page? Regards MLFHS member -
Hello, MLFHS member
I have found a pdf file of the early registers of St Peters Hartshead, Yorkshire, where a quite a lot of my DRAKE ancestors appear (from www.archive.org/details/parishregisterof17hart )
With a view to making notes on my copy of these registers, to help sort out all of my Drakes that appear there, I thought it would be a good idea to try and convert the pdf file into an editable format. I managed to convert the pdf file into a Microsoft office word document but the tabs went haywire in the conversion process.
Please can anyone tell me how to convert a pdf file into separate jpeg images of each page? Regards MLFHS member -
Responding MLFHS member -
If I understand what you want, you want text, not images. It sounds as though you've probably got as far as you're likely to get without a bit of manual processing. From, what you say you already have a text file version of the data that's just lacking the formatting tabs.
A quick glance at the original suggests that every line starts with a tab unless the first character is a '1' or the first word is a month name. There are umpteen ways of fixing that problem. Possibly the simplest, or at least the simplest to explain here, is this:
Insert a tab at the start of each line (find newline characters and replace with newline+tab). Search for newline+tab+'1' and globally replace with newline+'1'.
Search for each of the 12 month names in place of '1' in the above
procedure. Scan through for odd glitches and fix manually. Job done.
HTH Regards,
MLFHS: Conversion of Parish register pdf file into jpegs
Responding MLFHS member -
Not sure why you would want to do this the latest version of Adobe
Reader has both sticky notes and text highlighting functions built in what you are asking seems remarkably clumsy. Additionally you can copy and paste text into a Word processor of your choice.
If I understand what you want, you want text, not images. It sounds as though you've probably got as far as you're likely to get without a bit of manual processing. From, what you say you already have a text file version of the data that's just lacking the formatting tabs.
A quick glance at the original suggests that every line starts with a tab unless the first character is a '1' or the first word is a month name. There are umpteen ways of fixing that problem. Possibly the simplest, or at least the simplest to explain here, is this:
Insert a tab at the start of each line (find newline characters and replace with newline+tab). Search for newline+tab+'1' and globally replace with newline+'1'.
Search for each of the 12 month names in place of '1' in the above
procedure. Scan through for odd glitches and fix manually. Job done.
HTH Regards,
MLFHS: Conversion of Parish register pdf file into jpegs
Responding MLFHS member -
Not sure why you would want to do this the latest version of Adobe
Reader has both sticky notes and text highlighting functions built in what you are asking seems remarkably clumsy. Additionally you can copy and paste text into a Word processor of your choice.
MLFHS: Conversion of Parish register pdf file into jpegs
Responding MLFHS member –
Responding MLFHS member –
I suspect that the PDF format may be ok, if you use Foxit. This is available free on the web, quoted as a reader. It does however allow you to add notes (annotations, rather like post-its). Some of the newer Adobe readers offer this facility. It is probably possible for the document to prevent adding annotations.
If all else fails, you can save the image on your screen as an image, and subsequently save it as a .jpg. (Print Screen). A bit tedious if you wish to save a document with many pages.
If you have full access to the pdf (i.e. it hasn't been got at with passwords), you can use pdfimages from xpdf. I expect this is still a free download. This requires that there are actually images in there, which may or may not be the case.
Failing all this, perhaps you would care to put it somewhere where we can see it and perhaps offer a better solution.
If all else fails, you can save the image on your screen as an image, and subsequently save it as a .jpg. (Print Screen). A bit tedious if you wish to save a document with many pages.
If you have full access to the pdf (i.e. it hasn't been got at with passwords), you can use pdfimages from xpdf. I expect this is still a free download. This requires that there are actually images in there, which may or may not be the case.
Failing all this, perhaps you would care to put it somewhere where we can see it and perhaps offer a better solution.
MLFHS: 19th century funerals
I would like to add my thanks to Phil and John for keeping this great List up and running.
A friend has sent me an email asking the following question, I've never thought of it before. How were coffins of poor people transported to church in the 1800s? Were they carried by families who could not afford a hearse? Northmoor to St Mary's is less than a mile but is steeply uphill.
I was wondering if you may be able to suggest how, when my 2xGG Father Jonathan Whitehead 1797-1855 died how his coffin and mourners got to St Mary’s in Oldham. Would they walk, or use an horse drawn hearse? He was only an assistant grocer he lived in Northmoor. The same applies to my 2xGG Mother Betty Whitehead1795-1867 she was buried in Chadderton cemetery.
A friend has sent me an email asking the following question, I've never thought of it before. How were coffins of poor people transported to church in the 1800s? Were they carried by families who could not afford a hearse? Northmoor to St Mary's is less than a mile but is steeply uphill.
I was wondering if you may be able to suggest how, when my 2xGG Father Jonathan Whitehead 1797-1855 died how his coffin and mourners got to St Mary’s in Oldham. Would they walk, or use an horse drawn hearse? He was only an assistant grocer he lived in Northmoor. The same applies to my 2xGG Mother Betty Whitehead1795-1867 she was buried in Chadderton cemetery.
MLFHS: 19th century funerals - MORE
We must also not forget the stigma behind a funeral especially the rich and
the poor, some of the list may find the extracts from words written by
Thomas Laqueur, Bodies Death and Pauper Funerals -
The Poor, of course, had always been buried with less splendor than the rich, and the very poor had, since the sixteenth century if not before, been buried at the expense of the parish. Yet no special meaning seems to have been attached to these burials until the middle of the eighteenth century. Then, however, the funerals of the poor became pauper funerals and pauper funerals became occasions both terrifying to contemplate oneself and
profoundly degrading to one's survivors.
This essay is an investigation into how, between 1750 and 1850, the commemoration of the soul's departure from the body and the body's return to dust became an occasion to represent, with unrivaled clarity, the possibility of social worthlessness, earthly failure, and profound anonymity.
For the same reasons that the well-appointed funerals of the wealthy and prominent came to signify their pre-eminent position in society, the ignominious funerals of the poor came to signify the opposite – their absolute exclusion from the social body. Social standing came increasingly to depend on acquired rather than on inherited attributes, on earned wealth, on membership in a variety of voluntaristic organizations, on one's philanthropic or entrepreneurial prominence. In a world of this sort, where public standing had become intimately linked with the importance one had earned in the eyes of one's fellow men, no man's reputation could be finally assured until the moment of his death. Funerals thus became the ritual occasions for definitively marking social place, and the imaginative vehicle for those contemplating one's ultimate fate in the public eye. For the rich and successful, for those with social ties, the funeral could be anticipated with equanimity. Not so for the poor and friendless; it haunted them as the specter of failure.
"Nothing", said the essayist Charles LAMB in 1811 tended "to keep up in the imaginations of the poorer sort of people, a generous horror of the workhouse more than the manner in which pauper funerals are conducted." To be "put away on the parish" in late nineteenth-centurySalford was for the survivor's family to bear a "life long stigma," wrote Roberts ROBERTS in his account of that "classic slum"." And, as one mother in London
Regards
the poor, some of the list may find the extracts from words written by
Thomas Laqueur, Bodies Death and Pauper Funerals -
The Poor, of course, had always been buried with less splendor than the rich, and the very poor had, since the sixteenth century if not before, been buried at the expense of the parish. Yet no special meaning seems to have been attached to these burials until the middle of the eighteenth century. Then, however, the funerals of the poor became pauper funerals and pauper funerals became occasions both terrifying to contemplate oneself and
profoundly degrading to one's survivors.
This essay is an investigation into how, between 1750 and 1850, the commemoration of the soul's departure from the body and the body's return to dust became an occasion to represent, with unrivaled clarity, the possibility of social worthlessness, earthly failure, and profound anonymity.
For the same reasons that the well-appointed funerals of the wealthy and prominent came to signify their pre-eminent position in society, the ignominious funerals of the poor came to signify the opposite – their absolute exclusion from the social body. Social standing came increasingly to depend on acquired rather than on inherited attributes, on earned wealth, on membership in a variety of voluntaristic organizations, on one's philanthropic or entrepreneurial prominence. In a world of this sort, where public standing had become intimately linked with the importance one had earned in the eyes of one's fellow men, no man's reputation could be finally assured until the moment of his death. Funerals thus became the ritual occasions for definitively marking social place, and the imaginative vehicle for those contemplating one's ultimate fate in the public eye. For the rich and successful, for those with social ties, the funeral could be anticipated with equanimity. Not so for the poor and friendless; it haunted them as the specter of failure.
"Nothing", said the essayist Charles LAMB in 1811 tended "to keep up in the imaginations of the poorer sort of people, a generous horror of the workhouse more than the manner in which pauper funerals are conducted." To be "put away on the parish" in late nineteenth-century
Regards
MLFHS: 19th century funerals - MORE
The essay by Julie Ruggs, "From reason to regulation: 1760-1850" in "Death in England: An Illustrated History" (Peter C. Jupp, Clare Gittings, eds.), links the increased degradation associated with pauper funerals paid for by the parish with the movement for reform of the poor relief system in effect since Elizabethan times. In discussing funerals during the latter part of the first half of the 19th century she uses the description by Dickens of the funeral of Old Mr. Chuzzlewit's to serve as an example of the elaborate nature of middle class funerals of the time. Her discussion of the burials of the poor notes "By contrast, during this period, the funeral of the pauper reached levels of degradation deliberately calculated to contribute to the 'less eligibility' ethos of poor relief, whereby assistance would be so unpleasant and humiliating that the poor would be discouraged from applying . Paupers had always been afforded a funeral 'on the parish'. In some areas, these funerals -- even up to the early nineteenth century -- bore some resemblance to the rituals attending other members of the community. Thus, for example, the death of a poor, unknown deaf-mute in custody in
Another spur to finding alternatives to burial 'on the parish' was the Anatomy Act 1832 "which decreed that the bodies of unclaimed paupers could be given to medical science for anatomical purposes." The impetus to passing the Act was the widespread concern over grave robbers stealing corpses and selling them to medical schools to be dissected in anatomy classes. Once again, the poorest members of society were singled out for degradation. Ruggs suggests "Perhaps at no time in the modern period has the contrast been so marked between the death of the rich and the death of the poor: as the middle classes purchased often massive memorials to mark the passage of their loved ones, the poor were deprived even of a body over which to mourn."
The essay by Pat Jalland, "Victorian death and its decline: 1850-1918," in the same book notes that with the rise in the population and the increased urbanization during the 19th century undertakers became increasingly professionalized. One result was an increase in the use of increased funerary display such as black ostrich feathers, black coaches, special black clothing, etc. These did not reduce the cost of a funeral. Jalland refers to Edwin Chadwick's 1843 "Report on the Practice of Interment in Towns" where the average funeral expenses of the aristocracy in
In his "The Victorian Celebration of Death" James Stevens Curl notes "Chadwick recorded how, in many instances, a body might be kept for ten or more days in the same overcrowded room in which poor families lived while the money was raised to dispose of it. Even if sufficient cash had been gathered to enable the body to be coffined, the liquid inside often had to be tapped, producing a 'disagreeable effluvium' and encouraging the
multiplication of maggots 'crawling about' even where there were children playing. Chadwick pointed out that, on the average, 25 per cent of Britain's urban poor succumbed to epidemic or contagious diseases, and that the corpses of those who had died of those causes were often kept for many days (or even weeks) in rooms inhabited by the surviving family, and thus the unburied cadavers were sources of further infection and more deaths. One piece of evidence from Whitechapel concerned bodies kept until they were 'nearly putrid', sometimes having 'run away almost through the coffin, and the poor people, women and children..., living and sleeping in the same room at the same time'."
Ah, the good old days....
Re: MLFHS: Funeral transport
Thanks to MLFHS members for the extra comments about funeral transport. I'll send a selection of the replies to my friend. It sounds as if the handcart would be used by families who could not afford the horse drawn glass hearse.
Thanks to MLFHS members for the extra comments about funeral transport. I'll send a selection of the replies to my friend. It sounds as if the handcart would be used by families who could not afford the horse drawn glass hearse.
Re: MLFHS: Was Smog
Not just inManchester Oxford Street , London , started 1950 ended in 1977. The dress requirements included white blouses (white shirts for men). She couldn't afford that many, so each were worn and washed the same day. On foggy/smoggy days the washing water was absolutely black. The dry cleaning bill for her skirts was large but essential, and the scarves, hankies, gloves etc all had to be laundered very frequently too.
I remember standing inPortland Place waiting for a 715 Greenline coach from West End to Cheshunt (the usual route in the 1950s) looking for lights – you couldn't see the bus/coach until it actually stood at the stop!
AND the smell.... yuk!
Another MLFHS member input
I once came out of work (1600 ft up on the top of a Scottish hill, nearly four miles from the nearest road) and found the mist / cloud had come right down. I started driving down but the track was so poorly defined that I felt that I was going off the track. So I got out and walked a few yards in front of the van, put a torch in the middle of the track then drove up to it. I had to keep doing that until the track started losing height and visibility improved.
Subject: Re: MLFHS: Was Smog- Fog
Being born and brought up inBlackpool I fortunately never knew smog but after marrying we moved to the local mossland area. Narrow roads with steep edges into fields whose levels had been lowered because of peat extraction. Coming home from a dinner dance one night as we turned off the main road it was so foggy we could not even see the bonnet of the car - so who (in long, sparse evening gown) had to get out and walk in front of the car for a couple of miles saying - left a bit, slow down, right a bit etc?
Subject: Re: MLFHS: Was Smog
All these stories are so interesting. I have a few of points to share.
My dad told a story often about how a stream of traffic followed him
home fromManchester
eventually told him they thought he looked like he knew where he was
going so decided to follow. All these cars followed suit and ended up in a cul-de-sac in Hazel Grove!!!! So not an urban myth.
Some years later as y'all seem to be refering to the early 1950's I
can still remember the fog/smog. We lived in a valley so the fog
seemed to settle there for a real "pea-souper" longer than up in the
village. Then when I was working and had a car (early 70's?) I
remember feeling terrified at having to drive home and the only way
was trying to hug the kerb which wasn't helped of course by cars
parked on the A6! Seemed to take forever and it was only from near
Stepping Hill Hospital to Heaton Mersey - both Stockport . Back in
those days cars had fog lights and that orangy glow was most
disconserting!
Interestingly, just this week, I borrowed a book on Chorlton upon
Medlock and Ardwick from a friend. There are a few photos in there
that look quite dim because of the fog and the author has commented on these. Otherwise I would have assumed they were badly taken photos or very faded from someone's personal collection.
Another MLFHS member input
O yes I remember it well. ?Even though I was born in Liverpool I was brought up in Rhyl, N.Wales so only knew light sea mists that soon disappeared, so, big shock when I arrived inManchester
Subject: Re: MLFHS: Was Smog
Hi All
I have vague recollections of the smog’s and walking round with scarves or the bottom section of the balaclava pulled up over the mouth and nose, my most vivid memory though is being taken by my Dad to the roof of the tower on All Saints Church and looking down Briscoe Lane towards Bradford Rd gas works will all the chimney's of the houses and factories producing smoke and the gas works looking quite hazy and that was a relatively clear day. Of course this was before natural gas and everyone had a coal fire. I think the introduction of natural gas had as big if not bigger impact than the clean air act who wants to lug around a coal bucket if you can just turn a valve on.
Food for thought, there is a lot of emphasis on green energy and wood burning stoves. What difference is there between wood and coal if it really catches on will the smog’s start to come back
Now there is something you tend to forget, I remember going to school with a scarf across my face on arrival it was black. How nice it is to have cleaner air to breath and see where you are going.
Subject: Re: MLFHS: Was Smog
We lived a mile or so outsideBolton town centre, there was a bus stop outside the house. A couple of times there were buses that had driven right through the town centre and ended up on the wrong side of the town completely lost.
There was bend in the road with a minor road going straight on so it was entertaining to watch cars following the kerb and completely missing the bend, others would know it was there so head vaguely into the centre of the road then try and find the kerb on the other side of the bend. Don't remember any accidents though, everyone was going so slowly.
Subject: MLFHS: was smog
Oh and in theWest Midlands too! I was at college in Wednesbury and the buses home were frequently cancelled. Our classroom was on the third floor of the college and we used to watch the greenish fog/smog settling around us. I can also remember one horrendous journey back from Wolverhampton in a Morris Minor when I had to open the door and hang out of the car to tell the driver how close to the kerb we were driving!
MLFHS member in fairly sunnyCheltenham
Not just in
I remember standing in
AND the smell.... yuk!
Another MLFHS member input
I once came out of work (1600 ft up on the top of a Scottish hill, nearly four miles from the nearest road) and found the mist / cloud had come right down. I started driving down but the track was so poorly defined that I felt that I was going off the track. So I got out and walked a few yards in front of the van, put a torch in the middle of the track then drove up to it. I had to keep doing that until the track started losing height and visibility improved.
Subject: Re: MLFHS: Was Smog- Fog
Being born and brought up in
Subject: Re: MLFHS: Was Smog
All these stories are so interesting. I have a few of points to share.
My dad told a story often about how a stream of traffic followed him
home from
eventually told him they thought he looked like he knew where he was
going so decided to follow. All these cars followed suit and ended up in a cul-de-sac in Hazel Grove!!!! So not an urban myth.
Some years later as y'all seem to be refering to the early 1950's I
can still remember the fog/smog. We lived in a valley so the fog
seemed to settle there for a real "pea-souper" longer than up in the
village. Then when I was working and had a car (early 70's?) I
remember feeling terrified at having to drive home and the only way
was trying to hug the kerb which wasn't helped of course by cars
parked on the A6! Seemed to take forever and it was only from near
those days cars had fog lights and that orangy glow was most
disconserting!
Interestingly, just this week, I borrowed a book on Chorlton upon
Medlock and Ardwick from a friend. There are a few photos in there
that look quite dim because of the fog and the author has commented on these. Otherwise I would have assumed they were badly taken photos or very faded from someone's personal collection.
Another MLFHS member input
O yes I remember it well. ?Even though I was born in Liverpool I was brought up in Rhyl, N.Wales so only knew light sea mists that soon disappeared, so, big shock when I arrived in
Subject: Re: MLFHS: Was Smog
Hi All
I have vague recollections of the smog’s and walking round with scarves or the bottom section of the balaclava pulled up over the mouth and nose, my most vivid memory though is being taken by my Dad to the roof of the tower on All Saints Church and looking down Briscoe Lane towards Bradford Rd gas works will all the chimney's of the houses and factories producing smoke and the gas works looking quite hazy and that was a relatively clear day. Of course this was before natural gas and everyone had a coal fire. I think the introduction of natural gas had as big if not bigger impact than the clean air act who wants to lug around a coal bucket if you can just turn a valve on.
Food for thought, there is a lot of emphasis on green energy and wood burning stoves. What difference is there between wood and coal if it really catches on will the smog’s start to come back
Now there is something you tend to forget, I remember going to school with a scarf across my face on arrival it was black. How nice it is to have cleaner air to breath and see where you are going.
Subject: Re: MLFHS: Was Smog
We lived a mile or so outside
There was bend in the road with a minor road going straight on so it was entertaining to watch cars following the kerb and completely missing the bend, others would know it was there so head vaguely into the centre of the road then try and find the kerb on the other side of the bend. Don't remember any accidents though, everyone was going so slowly.
Subject: MLFHS: was smog
Oh and in the
MLFHS member in fairly sunny
MLFHS: Funeral transport and processions
Interestingly - to me- anyway, was my start in family history which was through an obituary for my ggg grandfathers in the Bakers Times of 1879. He was the Sect. of the Manchester Central Branch of the Bakers Union, and died suddenly at the age of 42.
They 'walked through the crowded streets for more than 3 miles' the Band playing the Dead March- in which the procession of 150 people - headed by a military band- walked from his home in Phillips Park to the Burial ground at Ardwick Green.
After the funeral the crowd which had greatly increased-- joined at Mr Clytons, 'Bakers Arms'.
Doesn't sound like a very quiet funeral does it ?, and I presume it was a horse draw affair. There are some great images on Goggle’s image file for any one who is interested. Floral carts, plumed horses etc.
If any one would be interested to see this particular obituary, I can email a pic directly.
I believe a handcart would also be used when the deceased had no relatives to carry the coffin. Does anyone know when pall bearers in theUK
MLFHS: Fwd: Funeral transport
Interestingly - to me- anyway, was my start in family history which was through an obituary for my ggg grandfathers in the Bakers Times of 1879. He was the Sect. of the Manchester Central Branch of the Bakers Union, and died suddenly at the age of 42.
They 'walked through the crowded streets for more than 3 miles' the Band playing the Dead March- in which the procession of 150 people - headed by a military band- walked from his home in Phillips Park to the Burial ground at Ardwick Green.
After the funeral the crowd which had greatly increased-- joined at Mr Clytons, 'Bakers Arms'.
Doesn't sound like a very quiet funeral does it ?, and I presume it was a horse draw affair. There are some great images on Goggle’s image file for any one who is interested. Floral carts, plumed horses etc.
If any one would be interested to see this particular obituary, I can email a pic directly.
I believe a handcart would also be used when the deceased had no relatives to carry the coffin. Does anyone know when pall bearers in the
MLFHS: Fwd: Funeral transport
The following bit deals with changes brought about by the shift to motor hearses -- WWII cut off the supply of the favorite breed of black horses --and the increased use of cremation:
"Growing use of motor hearses and crematoria also increased funeral directors' control over funerals. The most popular horses had been the Dutch) Belgian Black, whose supply ceased in 1939. Cheaper and faster, motor hearses became a necessity for crematoria journeys, enabling four or
> ore funerals a day. Now responsible for the transport both of the body and of the mourners, funeral directors' control over the funeral process was almost complete. The larger British firms, with centralized facilities for coffin storage, embalming and client-reception, were able to reap considerable economies of scale." Peter C. Jupp and Tony Walter, "The Wealthy society: 1918-98" (Chapter 10 of "Death inEngland UK
American MLFHS member
Subject: MLFHS: Fwd: Funeral transport
> Work onManchester road Bolton and very often see amazingly beautiful horse drawn funeral corteges, plumes etc. going by - very beautiful. What a way to go! Still popular here obviously.
Subject: MLFHS: Funeral transport
> ore funerals a day. Now responsible for the transport both of the body and of the mourners, funeral directors' control over the funeral process was almost complete. The larger British firms, with centralized facilities for coffin storage, embalming and client-reception, were able to reap considerable economies of scale." Peter C. Jupp and Tony Walter, "The Wealthy society: 1918-98" (Chapter 10 of "Death in
American MLFHS member
Subject: MLFHS: Fwd: Funeral transport
> Work on
Subject: MLFHS: Funeral transport
When I was a boy (some 70-odd years ago) I lived in Silverdale
(Lancs.) Opposite the cemetery there was a disused church (the old chapel feasance) which was used to store a handcart. Although the local carhire firm (Shawa) had a motor hearse, which would normally be used in my day, the handcart had presumably been used in the past--and indeed may have been used in my time, though I don't recollect seeing it in use.
I remember my grandmother (a Boltonian) talking about funeral hearses drawn by black horses wearing black plumes. I myself once saw such a funeral in 1948 inPerugia , and I believe they were used at that time in France
So, horse-drawn hearses for the well-heeled, handcarts for the lesser orders!
(Lancs.) Opposite the cemetery there was a disused church (the old chapel feasance) which was used to store a handcart. Although the local carhire firm (Shawa) had a motor hearse, which would normally be used in my day, the handcart had presumably been used in the past--and indeed may have been used in my time, though I don't recollect seeing it in use.
I remember my grandmother (a Boltonian) talking about funeral hearses drawn by black horses wearing black plumes. I myself once saw such a funeral in 1948 in
So, horse-drawn hearses for the well-heeled, handcarts for the lesser orders!
MLFHS: Life Begins
Dear List
Wouldn’t it be a good idea for us older brethren to tell the younger ones on the list some of our memories of what life was like for us in the good old days as the list is for family history I think it would be appreciated I will start with my memories I hope they are not booring.
My life began on the 30 of May 1945 in a small two up two down
terraced house with no hot water and an outside toilet number7
Reddish St. Lower Broughton in the city of Salford
Dear List
Wouldn’t it be a good idea for us older brethren to tell the younger ones on the list some of our memories of what life was like for us in the good old days as the list is for family history I think it would be appreciated I will start with my memories I hope they are not booring.
My life began on the 30 of May 1945 in a small two up two down
terraced house with no hot water and an outside toilet number
Reddish St.
My earliest recollection was at the age of three being taken to
Greenbank children’s hospital and nursery on
Broughton
The other incident was much more serious and has affected me throughout my life it was during lunch in the canteen that a bowl of soup was served I said I did not want it but this was not the way things happened in them days matron then came over and said you eat what you are given eat it I again said no and was treated to a lash across the shoulders from the long cane she always carried I again said no and got another lash this time harder the matron then told me she would stay until I had eaten every last drop of soup I then started to eat it but after two spoonfuls I threw it back up into the bowl astonishingly matron lashed me again and told me to eat my own sick this was impossible to do because each time I got the spoon to my mouth I was sick again after whacking me one more time the nice matron allowed me to leave table and canteen with more than one of my fellow diners looking as queasy as myself. My mind still goes back to that day whenever anybody asks me to eat something I don’t like the look of the smell of or taste of.
At the grand old age of four I started school
The first day started well I got the cane for pissing up the wall in
the toilets Kenny Whittle and me, seeing who could get the highest. So at my first school assembly I was called out and caned the headmaster calling me a young thug, caned and called a thug at four years of age what a start to school life.
I can remember another memory at St. Andrews when I was five one of the lessons was about the difference between men and women the teacher was talking about women’s busts and all of a sudden she whipped hers out and said busts were just like balloons it was an eye opener but a bit too much for five year olds but maybe she got her kicks that way and they say there was never any sex lessons in school in the old days.
The school playground was a cinder pitch and playing one break time I went flying gashing my hand on the cinders, which went into my flesh, I still have the scar to this day. Just before I was six St. Andrews closed down (before it fell down) and I then went to Ascension school this was over a mile away and every
day me and our Billy had to walk there and back on our own, me mam or dad never took us to school, mind you no ones mams or dads took their kids to school in those days. Not much to remember about Ascension only the nit nurse making regular visits and delousing us, one day one of the girls in our class came in with a scarf on her head she had been shaven because she had to many nits And they couldn’t get rid of them so it was off to the nurse for a fourpenny all off.
In 1951 when I was six the river Irwell was getting ready to flood and we only lived 100 yards away and we were all kept busy moving
everything upstairs ready to move to my grans house half a mile
further away from the river, just as we arrived at grans the river
came over the banks it did not take long for the water to reach us at grans as the whole of lower Broughton and Lower Kersal was flooded in fact is was the last really big flood of the Irwell. Grans was a mess, the water was over a foot deep we kids all loved it seeing all that water and wading and splashing about in our wellies, after a few hours the level of the water went down a little so we all tramped back to our house to see what damage the water had done but because our house had a step at the front door and no water had got into the house so we had moved everything upstairs for nothing. After a few days the water had all dried up but because the Irwell was a black stinking river the mud it left behind stunk rotten and it took the corporation days to clean up.
During this time there was plenty of rats about and we found one in
our back yard and I remember my dad wetting himself when he saw it, he shut the door and sent us round to one of our neighbours the Quigley’s to borrow their cat a big black tom when we threw it in the backyard to kill the rat it took no notice of the rat and just flew over the back door to freedom. Dad and Uncle Arthur discussed what to do next, then both armed with a poker and the bottom of their trousers tied with string they ventured with some trepidation out into the back yard to do battle only to find that the rat was dead and had been for sometime. So ended the saga of the rat.
I will always remember the summer of 1951 it was glorious, one
Saturday evening after having a bath! Now that was an experience as we did not have a bath we were bathed after mam had done the washing in a washtub that was built into the wall of the backroom (the posh name for the scullery) next to the stone sink, the water in the washtub you was heated by making a fire underneath it. After mam had finished the washing we went into it one after another to be bathed and I was fourth in line after George, Len and Billy you couldn’t afford to waste hot water in them days. Anyway after having my bath mam let us go out to play and I went to Peel Park which was just minutes away on the other side of the river Irwell to catch grasshoppers I came back home with a jam jar filled with them, when I got home that night I had to hide them in the outside toilet, next morning uncle Arthur came flying out of the toilet with his trousers round his ankles covered in grasshoppers. Needless to say I got no spends off him that month. Sunday was the day uncle Arthur gave each of us our spends a threepennybit once a month which today is just over 1 pence, when the Sunday came around for our spends we used to queue in the backyard waiting for him to finish on the toilet, we were eager to get our money and be off to spend it on toffees.
Saturday evening after having a bath! Now that was an experience as we did not have a bath we were bathed after mam had done the washing in a washtub that was built into the wall of the backroom (the posh name for the scullery) next to the stone sink, the water in the washtub you was heated by making a fire underneath it. After mam had finished the washing we went into it one after another to be bathed and I was fourth in line after George, Len and Billy you couldn’t afford to waste hot water in them days. Anyway after having my bath mam let us go out to play and I went to Peel Park which was just minutes away on the other side of the river Irwell to catch grasshoppers I came back home with a jam jar filled with them, when I got home that night I had to hide them in the outside toilet, next morning uncle Arthur came flying out of the toilet with his trousers round his ankles covered in grasshoppers. Needless to say I got no spends off him that month. Sunday was the day uncle Arthur gave each of us our spends a threepennybit once a month which today is just over 1 pence, when the Sunday came around for our spends we used to queue in the backyard waiting for him to finish on the toilet, we were eager to get our money and be off to spend it on toffees.
That summer also saw me go on my first holiday to the Salford poor
children’s retreat at Prestatyn holiday camp better known as the jam
butty farm but at least it was a holiday and the first time I had seen the countryside or sea, all I can remember about it was catching small crabs under the rocks on the beach and the charabang (coach) journey there and back. Summer was always the worse time for sleeping in our house because we only had two bedrooms and I slept in the back bedroom in a double bed Our George and Len at the top of the bed and me and our Billy at the bottom and as our George and Len were bigger than us we slept with their stinking feet in our faces every night.
Another incident that summer happened when I borrowed me mams scissors. I took the screw out of the middle and use each side as throwing knives at the trees in Peel Park later on when I turned into our street to go home Huge copper at our front door taking to me mam I thought me mam had reported me for pinching her scissors and I shit myself and headed back for Peel Park.
Later I met up with a mate Tommy who lived next to grans and we went
playing on the Irwell doing dangerous things what kids do, swinging
from the girders of the iron bridge across the river to the banking
below just missing the river. I left Tommy still playing on the bridge as it was now dark and went home to face the consequences I had put the screw back in the scissors and decided to tell mam I had just borrowed them after a bit of a telling of I went to bed. The next day I heard that Tommy had not gone home that night and was missing someone informed the police that they had seen him on the bridge late at night so the police decided to drag the river thinking he may have fallen in. They did not find him that day but two days later his body was found a mile further down the river. Funnily enough it was my uncle Len that discovered his body. He was a good mate of mine Tommy was but his mam and dad treated him terrible, he used to have to eat his meals sat on the backdoor step and was always full of bruises so in a way he was probably better off were he was.
A few days later I nearly drowned myself. I was on a raft we had made on Meadow street reservoir there was three of us on the raft and we were about 15 feet out from the side when it started to sink the two other lads jumped off and managed to scramble to the side but I was going further out luckily the raft stopped sinking and I managed to paddle back to the side. I was bloody lucky because I couldn’t swim and the reservoir was about sixty feet deep and we should not have been there with it being a Sunday there was no-one working there. But the worst thing about it was when I got back to the banking I threw my wet shoes on top of the reservoir wall to dry and when I climbed back up to get them I could only find one I must have thrown them to hard and the went into the long grass by the side of the reservoir I searched for hours in the long grass but could not find them. Eventually I had to go home minus one shoe and sneaked in the back door petrified that me mam or dad would notice my missing shoe luckily for me they didn’t. If they had I’d have got the hiding of my life. Me dad used to like using his thick leather belt on us but then again he was no different than other kids dads at that time we used to compare bruises and belt marks with other kids in the street and we were only kids of five six or seven me I was six.
Anyway back to the shoes the next day being Sunday and me dad at work I sneaked out of the house and went back to the reservoir and found my other shoe. Kids were much more adventuress in the early fifties and used to do things today’s kids wouldn’t dream of or be allowed by their parents but then there was no television or electronic games only the games you made yourself in your mind, there was plenty of old bomb sites and derelict buildings to explore, dens to build, trees to climb and rope swings to make wooden pea guns and catapults and throwing arrows, old bicycle wheels with the spokes taken out of them. The girls used to run with them keeping them turning by hitting them on the top to keep them turning but us lads used to thro them it front of us with a back flip of the wrist so they would spin and role back to us we used to see who could get the wheel to spin back from the furthest distance and in summer pitch bombs when the sun used to melt the pitch on the roads I
was forever getting in trouble going home with my clothes and hands
covered in pitch something else we used to make in summer were poles
with a blob of pitch on the end then we would go along Lower Broughton Rd where the shops were they had a grate under the shop window and above the cellar window and we used to pick things with our pitch poles that people had dropped down the grating sometimes money but only pennies.
was forever getting in trouble going home with my clothes and hands
covered in pitch something else we used to make in summer were poles
with a blob of pitch on the end then we would go along Lower Broughton Rd where the shops were they had a grate under the shop window and above the cellar window and we used to pick things with our pitch poles that people had dropped down the grating sometimes money but only pennies.
One of the best things we used to make were Bogies an early form of go-cart which were made from a plank of wood and two pram wheels on a spindle at the back and two smaller pram wheels on a spindle and bolted to a piece of wood the fixed with one large bolt to the plank so it would turn and we could guide it with our feet or a length of rope the we would hold races down the hills in Peel Park and
later on when we moved to Lower Kersal an the golf course which had
much better hills and obstacles.
later on when we moved to Lower Kersal an the golf course which had
much better hills and obstacles.
Summer ended and the drift into autumn began then the beginning of
winter and the biggest night in any kids life at the time Bonfire
Night, the build up to bonfire night began weeks before with the
collecting of wood mainly from the river Irwell after the rains when
driftwood floated down the banks of the Irwell Peel park used to be
crowded with kids from all over Lower Broughton with hooks on the ends of rope throwing them into the Irwell to try to hook logs and any kind of wood floating past, many a fight was had during this time also we had to find hiding places for all the wood for the bonfire not only from other gangs of kids from rival bonfires but from our parents who would have used the wood for fuel as it got nearer to bonnynight as we all called it, we used to plan raids on other gangs as though we were going to rob the bank of England although raiding another gangs. Woodpile was more important.
When the big night arrived me mam used to make treacle toffee as toffee apples were to much of a luxury for us as apples were rationed at the time also there were very few fireworks
at that time just a few bangers and ripraps penny wheels and sparklers but the fireworks were not the main thing that was sitting on old armchairs or sofa’s till they had to be thrown on the bonfire and roasting chestnuts on a shovel or roasting spuds in the fire and
stopping out late because the bonfire was in the street and nearly
every street had a bonfire in those days.
at that time just a few bangers and ripraps penny wheels and sparklers but the fireworks were not the main thing that was sitting on old armchairs or sofa’s till they had to be thrown on the bonfire and roasting chestnuts on a shovel or roasting spuds in the fire and
stopping out late because the bonfire was in the street and nearly
every street had a bonfire in those days.
It was always after bonfire night that winter set in, the morning
after the bonfires it was always foggy due to all the fires and you
could smell the smoke for days afterwards and boy did it get foggy in them days some days you could not see more than a few feet in front of you and it used to stay foggy for days at a time all the buses used to stop running and as there were only a few cars on the road it used to be like something out of a horror film still we used to make use of it we used to go onto Lower Broughton Road and guide the cars and lorries with our torches for about a mile for which we got a penny or two.
When haircutting time came round dad used to get out the round pudding bowl and the scissors and by the time he had finished we all looked like hedgehogs little knowing that this would be the fashion for youngsters forty years down the road and they would pay a fortune for the privilege Christmas 1952 was the last one we had in Reddish Street Lower Broughton everybody helped to make the decorations out of coloured crepe paper and paste made with flower and water no Christmas tree I don’t remember having one till I was in my teens, Christmas day arrived and on the end of the bed (not the fireplace because that was a big black iron thing with an oven and a ledge for the kettle on it) was one of each of our socks holes an all filled with some nuts a few toffees and a tangerine also a toy plastic torch gun which I thought was marvellous and immediately went under the bedclothes to try it out.
Also the Tangerine was a thing of wonder as it was the first time I had seen one let alone had one all to myself and after eating the slices nibbling all the white pith till just the thinnest of peel was left no tangerine has ever tasted as good as that first one as for Bananas the were mythical things something one did not believe in but when they did come out the best meal in the world was a swashed banana butty After Christmas winter really set in and when you are a child winters always seemed colder and the snow lasted longer (ally ally aster snow snow faster if you don’t I’ll tell your master) and it always seemed to work I always remember the huge icicles that used to hang from the gutters because most of them were broken or the drainpipes.
The biggest ones used to be at the back of Weirs pawnshop on Lower Broughton Road I also remember making slides on the roads or pavements by keeping sliding on the snow until it became like glass we used to make some cracking slides on the slight hill to Hough Lane bridge leading into Peel Park
In May 1953 we moved to Lower Kersal as the houses in Lower Broughton were being pulled down and redeveloped we moved into a three-bedroom house with a garden (magic) and an inside toilet and bathroom but the most magical thing about it was running hot water heated from a back boiler from the fire a House with a garden front-side and back a bathroom a toilet and hot water I thought I had died and gone to heaven also we lived within one hundred yards of Littleton Road playing fields and the hills of lower Kersal.
(The) golf club was just at the end of the Street also a large area of waste ground just off Kingsley Avenue where we lived this backed onto the River Irwell and was later use for Kersal flats in the Sixties. That night I could not sleep thinking about the adventures to come in this new wondrous place. The only drawback I had at first in making new mates was that I still wore clogs and they thought these were only worn by the poorest of kids. That was until nightfall and I shown them just how good clogs were in making sparks (and boy could I make beautiful sparks) especially as me dad had just put new steel strips on them.
After this I was excepted into the gang needless to say the steel strips soon wore down and as me dad knew why they were wearing down so quickly it was a good hiding, soon after I was bought shoes and so ended the era of sparking clogs When we moved to Kersal I had to leave Ascension School and started a Lower Kersal Junior School till I left there and went to Broughton Modern in 56 Me and my brother Bill used to catch the number 13 bus on Littleton road and get off at Pets corner on Lower Broughton Road
MLFHS: Julian Calendar.
There was a leap day, 29 February, before the Gregorian calendar was
introduced.
According to "The Oxford Companion to the Year" "In the modern form of the calendar, which dispenses with the Roman names of the days, this is leap day, inserted every four years to up the difference between the common year of 365 days and the solar year: by happy accident the sequence of leap years inherited from the Romans coincides with years AD divisible by 4. Since the true difference is some eleven minutes less than six hours, Pope Gregory XIII ordered in 1582 that leap day should be omitted when the year was divisible by 100 but not by 400; the years affected, in those countries that accepted the reform (which Great Britain did not till 1752), were 1700, 1800, and 1900."
The leap year, in the form of adding an extra day every four years, was introduced into the Roman calendar by Julius Caesar but administered incorrectly. In 8 AD Augustus as part of his calendar reform introduced the leap day added every four years. The calendar reform instituted by Gregory XIII was necessary because between 8 AD and 1582 AD those 11 minute differences added up to about 10 days. Accordingly as part of the adoption of the Gregorian calendar it was decreed that4 October 1582 be followed by 15 October 1582 .
There was a leap day, 29 February, before the Gregorian calendar was
introduced.
According to "The Oxford Companion to the Year" "In the modern form of the calendar, which dispenses with the Roman names of the days, this is leap day, inserted every four years to up the difference between the common year of 365 days and the solar year: by happy accident the sequence of leap years inherited from the Romans coincides with years AD divisible by 4. Since the true difference is some eleven minutes less than six hours, Pope Gregory XIII ordered in 1582 that leap day should be omitted when the year was divisible by 100 but not by 400; the years affected, in those countries that accepted the reform (which Great Britain did not till 1752), were 1700, 1800, and 1900."
The leap year, in the form of adding an extra day every four years, was introduced into the Roman calendar by Julius Caesar but administered incorrectly. In 8 AD Augustus as part of his calendar reform introduced the leap day added every four years. The calendar reform instituted by Gregory XIII was necessary because between 8 AD and 1582 AD those 11 minute differences added up to about 10 days. Accordingly as part of the adoption of the Gregorian calendar it was decreed that
Most of the Protestant countries were not about to do anything the Pope had a hand in so the change did not get to them until later. In Great Britain
The same Act also provided that the year would start on 1 January rather than Lady Day. Among its other provisions were one for persons who had not attained their majority (then 21). They had to wait the full count of days for inheritance purposes. Similarly, there were provisions for interest and contracts that made certain they ran the full number of days. According to folk history it was some years before the cry for the eleven 'stolen' days settled down. Historically it is of minor interest that while George Washington's birthday is celebrated on 22 February, he was born on 11 February. Because he was born on11 February 1731 , old style, i.e., 11 February 1732 by modern style, under the terms of the Act he did not become 21 years old until 22 February 1753 , hence the use of the latter date for public celebrations.
The same Act also provided that the year would start on 1 January rather than Lady Day. Among its other provisions were one for persons who had not attained their majority (then 21). They had to wait the full count of days for inheritance purposes. Similarly, there were provisions for interest and contracts that made certain they ran the full number of days. According to folk history it was some years before the cry for the eleven 'stolen' days settled down. Historically it is of minor interest that while George Washington's birthday is celebrated on 22 February, he was born on 11 February. Because he was born on
MLFHS: Tonge Cemetery plus link
Hi All,
whilst searching for graveyard Plans I came across this site
http://www.interment.net/data/eng/greatman/tonge_bolton/tonge.htm
Internment.net -appears to be American but covers the world and has a lot of UK interments, done by volunteers.
If you get a copy of the Tongue Cemetery Plan I would appreciate a copy for UK Churches cemetery & Graveyard plans or any plans I do not already have.
Hi All,
whilst searching for graveyard Plans I came across this site
http://www.interment.net/data/eng/greatman/tonge_bolton/tonge.htm
Internment.net -appears to be American but covers the world and has a lot of UK interments, done by volunteers.
If you get a copy of the Tongue Cemetery Plan I would appreciate a copy for UK Churches cemetery & Graveyard plans or any plans I do not already have.
RE: MLFHS: Tonge Cemetery
It might be helpful if I added to the advice already given. Records of the 7 municipal cemeteries in what is now Bolton Metropolitan Borough Council are held at Overdale Crematorium, Chorley New Road, Bolton (01204 334499). The staff will hopefully send a plan of Tonge cemetery, which opened in 1856 being the only cemetery in Bolton until Heaton opened in 1879. They will sell the information on who is buried in each grave plot.
Bolton Archives & Local Studies hold microfilm copies of the grave books for the 7 cemeteries. No need to book, you can just turn up.
MLFHS: End of "Really Useful Sources" List ?
Hello All,
Many of the older members will remember me starting up the ?Really Useful Sources? website quite a few years ago now. As those years have gone by, I have gradually worn out; and now with a combination of advanced prostate cancer, and severe osteoarthritis, I am hoping to pass the baton on to someone else. Michael Fisher hosts the site and does all the technical stuff, so it is just a matter of looking out for new and worthwhile family history sources, most of which will be on line, collecting them together, along with your own thoughts on each one, and sending them off to Michael at suitable intervals. I will be happy to help any volunteer get started, and lack of experience is not a problem. I started it from scratch when I was a very new family historian wondering where the more experienced members got all their information.
You can find the site at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lancsopc/RUS/Guide.htm
MLFHS: Manchester Catholic Register Index (My great grandparents, Thomas Wroe and Mary Ellen Meagher were Catholics)
If this is what you used then it has just worked ok for me:http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/data/catholic_search.php
I have just used the MLFHS Toolbar to access BMD Manchester Local Manchester Catholic Register Index and received the following notification: "Unfortunately the file you've requested doesn't exist. You will be returned to our home page in approximately 5 seconds." I feel sure it used to exist, as I think I have used it before. Any suggestions please?
Hello All,
Many of the older members will remember me starting up the ?Really Useful Sources? website quite a few years ago now. As those years have gone by, I have gradually worn out; and now with a combination of advanced prostate cancer, and severe osteoarthritis, I am hoping to pass the baton on to someone else. Michael Fisher hosts the site and does all the technical stuff, so it is just a matter of looking out for new and worthwhile family history sources, most of which will be on line, collecting them together, along with your own thoughts on each one, and sending them off to Michael at suitable intervals. I will be happy to help any volunteer get started, and lack of experience is not a problem. I started it from scratch when I was a very new family historian wondering where the more experienced members got all their information.
You can find the site at http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~lancsopc/RUS/Guide.htm
MLFHS: Manchester Catholic Register Index (My great grandparents, Thomas Wroe and Mary Ellen Meagher were Catholics)
If this is what you used then it has just worked ok for me:http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/data/catholic_search.php
I have just used the MLFHS Toolbar to access BMD Manchester Local Manchester Catholic Register Index and received the following notification: "Unfortunately the file you've requested doesn't exist. You will be returned to our home page in approximately 5 seconds." I feel sure it used to exist, as I think I have used it before. Any suggestions please?
MLFHS: Manchester
Sorry about that - I had failed to amend this toolbar link when I restructured the web site. I have now corrected this and the toolbar link works correctly.
Incidentally, I noticed you posted this to mlfhs@genuki.org.uk the old address. This will disappear some time between now and the end of the year, so I suggest you amend your address book to the new address forum@list.mlfhs.org.uk
Sorry about that - I had failed to amend this toolbar link when I restructured the web site. I have now corrected this and the toolbar link works correctly.
Incidentally, I noticed you posted this to mlfhs@genuki.org.uk the old address. This will disappear some time between now and the end of the year, so I suggest you amend your address book to the new address forum@list.mlfhs.org.uk
MLFHS: Lancashire Parish Registers (Lancashire is the county surrounding Manchester
The Manchester Collection of Parish Registers A fairly new edition to the "familysearch.org" site is the Manchester Collection. This is a collection of Parish Registers (not indexes) which can be downloaded to your computer or printed off from the register.
Up to now, it needed a fairly long e-mail address for access but
a MLFHS member has added it to the toolbar under BMD-Church Registers-Lancashire Parish Register Images (LDS). There are approximately 115 Lancashire Churches, including quite a lot from Manchester and Salford plus 1 from Cheshire and 2 from Yorkshire From the list given, choose a church and date range. To move between pages press the arrow at the right of the page to move on one page at a time or put an approximate number in the box and press ENTER on your keyboard to go to the required page. These registers were filmed from the holdings of the Manchester Central (City) Library.
a MLFHS member has added it to the toolbar under BMD-Church Registers-Lancashire Parish Register Images (LDS). There are approximately 115 Lancashire Churches, including quite a lot from Manchester and Salford plus 1 from Cheshire and 2 from Yorkshire From the list given, choose a church and date range. To move between pages press the arrow at the right of the page to move on one page at a time or put an approximate number in the box and press ENTER on your keyboard to go to the required page. These registers were filmed from the holdings of the Manchester Central (City) Library.
MLFHS: Ancestry & Find My Past or whatever
Whilst the Society does not endorse any particular commercial product in favour of another we do contribute data to FMP (in return for royalties) and we have an affiliation arrangement with them. If you should decide on FMP then you can help the Society by accessing FMP via the MLFHS web site www.mlfhs.org.uk and following the FMP link from there - any money then spent earns us a substantial commission. At Clayton House we subscribe to both systems and will continue to do so.
Whilst the Society does not endorse any particular commercial product in favour of another we do contribute data to FMP (in return for royalties) and we have an affiliation arrangement with them. If you should decide on FMP then you can help the Society by accessing FMP via the MLFHS web site www.mlfhs.org.uk and following the FMP link from there - any money then spent earns us a substantial commission. At Clayton House we subscribe to both systems and will continue to do so.
One point worthy of note is that FMP have recently added two substantial datasets, The Manchester Collection and The Cheshire Collection, both of which have particular reference to our geographic area.
MLFHS: Annals of Manchester
Apologies if this is "old hat" but I discovered on-line the full text of his publication which is "a chronological record from the earliest times to he end of 1885" you can find it at:http://www.archive.org/stream/annalsofmanchest00axon/annalsofmanchest00axon_ djvu.txt Some of the spelling leaves much to be desired at times and this occasionally requires a bit of guess work.
Apologies if this is "old hat" but I discovered on-line the full text of his publication which is "a chronological record from the earliest times to he end of 1885" you can find it at:http://www.archive.org/stream/annalsofmanchest00axon/annalsofmanchest00axon_ djvu.txt Some of the spelling leaves much to be desired at times and this occasionally requires a bit of guess work.
MLFHS: Researching Irish ancestors
I don't know if anyone else has picked up on your query. I know how difficult it can be to research Irish ancestors. I would suggest you start with http://www.rootsireland.ie. It may point you in the right direction. If you know which part of Manchester they were in, their local Catholic Parish Church
MLFHS: The Peerage
In reply to Sandra's message about the Peerage, anyone with slightly royal links (or think they have) could search for them on the University of Hull web page at http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/genealogy/royal/gedx.html
It is a very good site and well worth searching as who knows who one will find.
In reply to Sandra's message about the Peerage, anyone with slightly royal links (or think they have) could search for them on the University of Hull web page at http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/genealogy/royal/gedx.html
It is a very good site and well worth searching as who knows who one will find.
MLFHS: Parish records available online at LDS site
There's no straightforward (either reasonable or unreasonable) way I know of getting a list of the parishes with images.
What I do is:
Go to familysearch.org
Scroll down the page and below 'Browse by Location' click on 'British Isles'; you'll get a list of all collections and some of these collections have link to 'Browse Images'
The Lancashire Parish Records entry does not have a 'Browse Images Link' but if you click on the link for the collection and scroll down the page you then get a link to 'Browse through Images'
There's no straightforward (either reasonable or unreasonable) way I know of getting a list of the parishes with images.
What I do is:
Go to familysearch.org
Scroll down the page and below 'Browse by Location' click on 'British Isles'; you'll get a list of all collections and some of these collections have link to 'Browse Images'
The Lancashire Parish Records entry does not have a 'Browse Images Link' but if you click on the link for the collection and scroll down the page you then get a link to 'Browse through Images'
MLFHS: Parish records available online at LDS site
The basic index page for theCheshire Lancashire and Yorkshire images is:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12454-46877-84?cc=1788853&wc=10932209#uri=https%3A%2F%2Fapi.familysearch.org%2Frecords%2Fcollection%2F1788853%2Fwaypoints
Memorable huh!
The basic index page for the
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12454-46877-84?cc=1788853&wc=10932209#uri=https%3A%2F%2Fapi.familysearch.org%2Frecords%2Fcollection%2F1788853%2Fwaypoints
Memorable huh!
MLFHS: Parish records available online at LDS site
I just click on BMD on the tool bar, go toLancashire online images and there is the list!
I just click on BMD on the tool bar, go to
CRRL Announcement
The big day is fast approaching, when the highly coveted (US Federal) 1940 census data is released! I don't think I'll be asking that VR purchase the microfilm for Virginia (over $11,000) nor do I think we'll print it off (free, but what a wad of paper!). Instead, I'm hoping our researchers will access it for free online. Here's the scoop:
MLFHS: Search More Than 40, 000 Digitized Genealogy and Family History Books
I apologize if this resource has been mentioned before. If it has, just blame my poor memory!
On my first try I found Francis BUSKEY listed as a witness in 1744 to the will of Anthony ADDAMS of Flintshire. This may be my Francis BUSKEY who married Ann ALLEN 1748 in Liverpool or it could be the Francis BUSKEY who married Sarah HOLT 1776 inLiverpool (or are they one and the same?)
Enjoy!
Disclaimer: The following article is from Eastman's Online Genealogy Newsletter and is copyright by Richard W. Eastman. It is re-published here with the permission of the author. Information about the newsletter is available at http://www.eogn.com.
"You can search through more than 40,000 digitized genealogy and family history books from the archives of seven important family history libraries in theUnited States
"You can perform a search at http://books.familysearch.org or click on the links to the individual libraries themselves. They areAllen County (Indiana ) Public Library, Brigham Young University Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University Hawaii Joseph F. Smith Library, Church History Library, Family History Library, Houston Public Library’s Clayton Library Center for Genealogical Research, and the Mid-Continent Public Library’s Midwest Genealogy Center
"The materials in the collections include family histories, county and local histories, genealogy magazines, how-to books, gazetteers, and medieval histories and pedigrees. Not all the books in all libraries have been digitized just yet. It is an on-going effort. If you don't find what you want in a search today, come back in a few months and try again. The book you seek may have been added by that time.
"You can search easily by entering a name in the search box. That operates in more or less the same manner as Google or most any other search engine. However, I'd suggest you first click on "Advanced Search" and then enter a more focused search in the form shown below.
[see http://preview.tinyurl.com/7w3ks62 for the article and to view the Advanced Search form.]
"Using the Advanced Search will usually result in "hits" that are closer to your exact area(s) of interest.
"This has to be one of the greatest online sources available to genealogists today. I am surprised at how little publicity has been generated about this valuable resource.
"Try it yourself at http://books.familysearch.org."
I apologize if this resource has been mentioned before. If it has, just blame my poor memory!
On my first try I found Francis BUSKEY listed as a witness in 1744 to the will of Anthony ADDAMS of Flintshire. This may be my Francis BUSKEY who married Ann ALLEN 1748 in Liverpool or it could be the Francis BUSKEY who married Sarah HOLT 1776 in
Enjoy!
Disclaimer: The following article is from Eastman's Online Genealogy Newsletter and is copyright by Richard W. Eastman. It is re-published here with the permission of the author. Information about the newsletter is available at http://www.eogn.com.
"You can search through more than 40,000 digitized genealogy and family history books from the archives of seven important family history libraries in the
"You can perform a search at http://books.familysearch.org or click on the links to the individual libraries themselves. They are
"The materials in the collections include family histories, county and local histories, genealogy magazines, how-to books, gazetteers, and medieval histories and pedigrees. Not all the books in all libraries have been digitized just yet. It is an on-going effort. If you don't find what you want in a search today, come back in a few months and try again. The book you seek may have been added by that time.
"You can search easily by entering a name in the search box. That operates in more or less the same manner as Google or most any other search engine. However, I'd suggest you first click on "Advanced Search" and then enter a more focused search in the form shown below.
[see http://preview.tinyurl.com/7w3ks62 for the article and to view the Advanced Search form.]
"Using the Advanced Search will usually result in "hits" that are closer to your exact area(s) of interest.
"This has to be one of the greatest online sources available to genealogists today. I am surprised at how little publicity has been generated about this valuable resource.
"Try it yourself at http://books.familysearch.org."
MLFHS: Catholic Churches (in or near Manchester
I am not familiar with Newton Heath, so I am reluctant to suggest possible churches. Looking at the current Diocesan Almanac, possible ones may be
St Brigit, Grey Mare Lane (from 1879)
St Anne, Higher Openshaw (from 1849)
St Chad, Cheetham (from 1773)
St Patrick, Livesey Street (from 1832)
St Francis, Gorton Monastery (from 1861)
St Mary, Failsworth (from 1845)
There MIGHT be others as my geography is not good, though I did live for a spell in Kirkmanhulme Lane which was described as Newton Detached.
All the Catholic churches of the Diocese of Salford are advised to deposit their old registers in the Lancashire Archives inPreston . Almost all the registers for the period you seek have been deposited there, so I would suggest that you browse the on-line Lancashire Archive catalogue at www.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/web/?siteid=4528&pageid=30843&e=e Most of the registers the LA holds are available there on film on open access.
In 1940, the Bishop requested parishes to have their registers filmed so that there was a security copy in case the originals were destroyed by bombing. Most (but not all) Catholic churches had their registers copied from 1870 (or the foundation of the parish if later) and eventually these films were deposited in the Lancashire Archives. I think that Manchester Central Library had copies of these films.
Hope this helps
I am not familiar with Newton Heath, so I am reluctant to suggest possible churches. Looking at the current Diocesan Almanac, possible ones may be
St Brigit, Grey Mare Lane (from 1879)
St Anne, Higher Openshaw (from 1849)
St Chad, Cheetham (from 1773)
St Patrick, Livesey Street (from 1832)
St Francis, Gorton Monastery (from 1861)
St Mary, Failsworth (from 1845)
There MIGHT be others as my geography is not good, though I did live for a spell in Kirkmanhulme Lane which was described as Newton Detached.
All the Catholic churches of the Diocese of Salford are advised to deposit their old registers in the Lancashire Archives in
In 1940, the Bishop requested parishes to have their registers filmed so that there was a security copy in case the originals were destroyed by bombing. Most (but not all) Catholic churches had their registers copied from 1870 (or the foundation of the parish if later) and eventually these films were deposited in the Lancashire Archives. I think that Manchester Central Library had copies of these films.
Hope this helps
Abstracting from your last note, -
He was Roman Catholic. His burial does not show up in the
I wrote to the appropriate branch of the Catholic Diocese who have the old records, .... to look up his burial record.
Looking at the other two points, it can be very awkward to find where Catholics are buried. Most of the Catholic population (in)
The old parish records are deposited in the Lancashire Archives in
To enquire if Thomas was buried in
Hope this helps a little
MLFHS: Salford Diocesan Archives Web Site
I have just added to the toolbar (Archives) the new website for Salford Roman Catholic Diocesan Archives. It is a new site so is still developing, but it does have some interesting photos already.
Direct address is: http://www.sdaregisters.co.uk/
I have just added to the toolbar (Archives) the new website for Salford Roman Catholic Diocesan Archives. It is a new site so is still developing, but it does have some interesting photos already.
Direct address is: http://www.sdaregisters.co.uk/
MLFHS: Civil registry marriage record help (my personal research)
I wrote – (posted on MLFHS forum)
I wrote – (posted on MLFHS forum)
All,
I am trying to locate any record of the marriage of my great grandparents, Thomas Wroe (born 8 March 1830 in Manchester , chr 21 March at Manchester Cathedral) to Mary Ellen Meagher, born Ireland
Ancestry search has a civil registry notation, reg district Manchester, Lancashire County, Jul-Aug-Sep 1852, Volume 8D and page 637 ... but I have been unable to get to the record. I expect one or more of Thomas' siblings might have been present or a witness. Any details would be most welcome.
Don Rowe
RESPONSE - Both FreeBMD and LancsBMD have Thomas Wroe & Mary Mohar (possible mis-transcription of Meagher).
As BOTH FreeBMD (= GRO Index) and LancsBMD (= Manchester RO) have MOHAR, then this is what was recorded at the time in the original Register, and so is not a mis-transcription. This record will reflect what the Registrar heard and so the bride and groom probably only knew their names as spoken names and not written names. This spelling sounds the same as the name of boys at school with me who spelt their name MEAGHER. MAHER is another alternative spelling. Given a variety of local pronunciations, it could be
represented as MAYOR or MAIR.
Hope this helps
BMD search results for 1852 marriage -
Thomas Wroe – Mary Mohar Manchester – Attended Record MCR-RM/25/23
I have mailed off the required documents and check (cheque) to Manchester England Records Office to obtain a copy of the marriage data for Thomas Wroe and Mary Ellen (Meagher) Wroe.
