HI CUZ Blog 109
Copyright 1990 et seq, Donald Rowe
|
I want to note again for any who might have recently started following
the blog that I have recently focused any efforts on my Wroe roots in the
Lancaster County England area, as well as any data assisting with Irish
research leading to identifying the origins of my Shanaghan roots.
MLFHS: Parish Maps on Family Search Org
Site
http://maps.familysearch.org/ This is quite an interesting site for people looking for parishes and
districts. It also has a peg man facility. A list of churches and finds them on a map.
http://maps.familysearch.org/ This is quite an interesting site for people looking for parishes and
districts. It also has a peg man facility. A list of churches and finds them on a map.
MLFHS: Talbot Library
An update about the Talbot Library, Preston. I have just received the following note -
Press Release from the Catholic Diocese of Lancaster
15 May 2014- Statement begins:
The highly acclaimed collection of some 50,000 books comprising the Talbot Library in Preston has been given a new lease of life following the announcement today by the Bishop of Lancaster, The Rt Rev Michael Campbell, that an agreement had been reached between the Lancaster Diocesan Trustees and Liverpool Hope University, whose Council is chaired by Monsignor John Devine, whereby the Talbot Library will be transferred on permanent loan to
the University. The library will be preserved there on permanent loan alongside three other excellent collections of theological works, making this the leading collection of Catholic literature in the northwest.
Following the closure of the Talbot Library in December 2013 a number of parties expressed interest in acquiring the library and were given access to the contents which include an extensive collection of early printed books (1500 ? 1800), a collection by G K Chesterton and a complete collection on John Henry Newman. Following an independent appraisal by Sotheby?s who
identified a number of books of historic and cultural importance it was recommended that the Diocese ensures that the Library be kept intact.
The Bishop of Lancaster and Trustees of the Diocese are delighted that as a result of the acceptance of the offer from Liverpool Hope University, the Talbot Library will retain its identity within the North West of England in temperature-controlled, British Museum standards conditions, which the University has established for its other valuable works. These conditions
are ideal for the long-term preservation of the books. It also provides easy access for its users and especially students of religious studies based at Liverpool Hope University and throughout the North West. Liverpool Hope University with its highly rated Theology Department is especially committed to encouraging scholars and others in the North West, especially those with long- standing links to the Talbot Library or are interested Catholic history and theology, to have access to these rich resources.
A separate Trust Fund will also be established between the Diocese and the University for the long-term preservation of the Talbot Library. Statement ends.
Further
information is available from: Mr Stephen Moore, Trustee, Diocese of Lancaster email:
stephenmoorebh@aol.com . Professor Fr. Peter McGrail, Head of the Department of Theology and Religious Studies, Liverpool Hope University - MCGRAIP@hope.ac.uk [end quote]
This is probably the most satisfactory solution to the problem as Hope University Library already houses the Gradwell Library that was in the Seminary at Upholland.
stephenmoorebh@aol.com . Professor Fr. Peter McGrail, Head of the Department of Theology and Religious Studies, Liverpool Hope University - MCGRAIP@hope.ac.uk [end quote]
This is probably the most satisfactory solution to the problem as Hope University Library already houses the Gradwell Library that was in the Seminary at Upholland.
Rcvd from a MLFHS member
MLFHS: Microfilm Copies
Not been following the thread. This may be of help: "The biggest attraction is the microfilm collection. Since 1938, the Genealogical Society of Utah and its successor organization, the LDS Church Family History Department, have been preserving copies of original documents on microfilm. In 1990 the library sponsored approximately 200 microfilming projects in various parts of the world. These efforts have added microfilmed copies of more than 5 million manuscripts to the library's collections. The microfilms show the original records of births, marriages, and deaths; military records; censuses; wills; notaries' records; cemetery records; and
other kinds of documents that describe people and families from the past. Other resources include compiled genealogies, local histories, old maps, city directories, and name indexes. The largest collections are from countries in North America and Europe, with substantial collections from Latin America. The library has also acquired written and oral materials from Asia, Africa, Australia, and the islands of the Pacific Ocean."
Fourth paragraph: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Family_History_Library
Best regards - MLFHS member
Subject: Re: MLFHS: Microfilm Copies
Thanks to Chris, Lesley and June for their responses. M/c catalogues may indeed be helpful - the LDS catalogue does not seem to show an acquisition date, at least online. My own memory fits with Lesley's that films might have been made available late 1970s. I certainly recall that the 1891 census was the first released on fiche (in 1992). June's comment on parish register films from 1952 offers an earlier date than I would have thought. Parishes were not required to deposit registers in record offices until 1978 but some would have been deposited before this so it is not out of the question. The technology certainly was around - I recall buying car spares from Ford in the 1960s and the details being held on fiche - indeed, when family historians were looking for fiche readers, garages were a source of supply as they were giving up this medium.
Original message from: MLFHS member
I would have thought that the LDS catalog [sic] wd show when they generated their version (which may not have been the earliest. I failed to work the catalog for this.
According to Michael Foster (Comedy
of Errors I p140), there is evidence that the LDS filming is later than the inferior GRO
filming. The GRO is the negative image. The LDS is positive and
exhibits a wide gutter between the facing pages (filmed almost flat). At
least some of the film is from the Southport copies, though there are
images that are from well worn books which seem to have been used at the
search rooms in London.
Is there an accession record for the copies at M/c library? I would think that would be earlyish.
MLFHS: Microfilm Copies
Can anyone tell me when microfilm copies of the GRO indexes and Census Returns first became available? I have some books from the late 1970s in which there is reference to films of the census while in Pine's Genealogist's Encyclopedia of 1969 film is not mentioned (but this is not necessarily confirmation that it did not exist).
Early 1970s therefore seems a possibility. Any suggestions welcomed.
MLFHS: Microfilm Copies
Further to Phil's note, in 1941/42 when it had become obvious that Lancashire would be a target for German bombing, Bishop Marshall, the Bishop of Salford, asked the parish priests to have their sacramental registers filmed. This was so that there was a copy if the church was bombed and the originals were destroyed. As with many such requests with cost implications, there was no funding attached. The parishes had to bear the cost. The parishes that considered they were at risk and could afford the process had their registers filmed. To minimise the cost, the registers filmed were usually from the foundation of the parish or from about 1807, whichever was later. This was because the parish clergy thought a 70 year period was sufficient for church purposes.
The films were originally stored at Wardley Hall (the residence of the Bishop of Salford) and later (ca 1970??) were deposited with the Lancashire Record Office. In recent years the film material used for these copies was found to have deteriorated and to be dangerous. The films were destroyed. Fortunately for us, most of the local authorities had obtained copies of the
films for use in their libraries.
I did not respond initially to John Marsden's note because I thought he was interested in films of material held in the Public Record Office / The National Archives such as the GRO Indexes and Census material,
Is there an accession record for the copies at M/c library? I would think that would be earlyish.
MLFHS: Microfilm Copies
Can anyone tell me when microfilm copies of the GRO indexes and Census Returns first became available? I have some books from the late 1970s in which there is reference to films of the census while in Pine's Genealogist's Encyclopedia of 1969 film is not mentioned (but this is not necessarily confirmation that it did not exist).
Early 1970s therefore seems a possibility. Any suggestions welcomed.
MLFHS: Microfilm Copies
Further to Phil's note, in 1941/42 when it had become obvious that Lancashire would be a target for German bombing, Bishop Marshall, the Bishop of Salford, asked the parish priests to have their sacramental registers filmed. This was so that there was a copy if the church was bombed and the originals were destroyed. As with many such requests with cost implications, there was no funding attached. The parishes had to bear the cost. The parishes that considered they were at risk and could afford the process had their registers filmed. To minimise the cost, the registers filmed were usually from the foundation of the parish or from about 1807, whichever was later. This was because the parish clergy thought a 70 year period was sufficient for church purposes.
The films were originally stored at Wardley Hall (the residence of the Bishop of Salford) and later (ca 1970??) were deposited with the Lancashire Record Office. In recent years the film material used for these copies was found to have deteriorated and to be dangerous. The films were destroyed. Fortunately for us, most of the local authorities had obtained copies of the
films for use in their libraries.
I did not respond initially to John Marsden's note because I thought he was interested in films of material held in the Public Record Office / The National Archives such as the GRO Indexes and Census material,
Subject:
MLFHS: List of Locations & Churches prior to 1800 - Cheshire
In an attempt to track down an elusive burial, I have been listing the church records of a certain period, then those on line and that are available.
It occurred to be that this is such a basic task - someone must have done it before me!
I know that the Lancashire Victorian 'green PR transcript books would cover what I want, but is there anything like that for Cheshire.....
What I am looking for is a list of Churches open in say 1650 in the Cheshire parishes, that are not yet indexed, and on line.
Taking into account there must have been hundreds - some long gone- what happened to the records, and where are they now?
I think there are about 300 Cheshire churches currently, some not yet indexed? some not scanned? So how can I find out more on them? especially the earlier ones.
I hope this query is not too vague, and someone has the answer.
Thank you MLFHS member
MLFHS: List of Locations & Churches prior to 1800 - Cheshire
Sorry, I can't help you with Cheshire particularly, however I bought a book years ago (c1995) entitled: A Genealogical Gazetteer of England - An Alphabetical Dictionary of Places, With Their Location, Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction, Population, and the Date of the Earliest Entry in the Registers of Every Ancient Parish in England $49.00
I think I paid about A$20 for it at the time. I have just checked and it's still available from:
http://www.genealogical.com a company in the US, although I bought mine locally in Australia.
It's produced and printed by the same company in Baltimore, USA.
I have always found it very useful when trying to locate little parishes and places I'd never heard of until research led me to an area. There's a wealth of information in it in surprisingly few words. I have not, so far, found anywhere not in the Gazetteer.
As I said, not exactly what you're looking for!!
In an attempt to track down an elusive burial, I have been listing the church records of a certain period, then those on line and that are available.
It occurred to be that this is such a basic task - someone must have done it before me!
I know that the Lancashire Victorian 'green PR transcript books would cover what I want, but is there anything like that for Cheshire.....
What I am looking for is a list of Churches open in say 1650 in the Cheshire parishes, that are not yet indexed, and on line.
Taking into account there must have been hundreds - some long gone- what happened to the records, and where are they now?
I think there are about 300 Cheshire churches currently, some not yet indexed? some not scanned? So how can I find out more on them? especially the earlier ones.
I hope this query is not too vague, and someone has the answer.
Thank you MLFHS member
MLFHS: List of Locations & Churches prior to 1800 - Cheshire
Sorry, I can't help you with Cheshire particularly, however I bought a book years ago (c1995) entitled: A Genealogical Gazetteer of England - An Alphabetical Dictionary of Places, With Their Location, Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction, Population, and the Date of the Earliest Entry in the Registers of Every Ancient Parish in England $49.00
I think I paid about A$20 for it at the time. I have just checked and it's still available from:
http://www.genealogical.com a company in the US, although I bought mine locally in Australia.
It's produced and printed by the same company in Baltimore, USA.
I have always found it very useful when trying to locate little parishes and places I'd never heard of until research led me to an area. There's a wealth of information in it in surprisingly few words. I have not, so far, found anywhere not in the Gazetteer.
As I said, not exactly what you're looking for!!
MLFHS: List of Location of Cheshire
Parishes – Phillimore Atlas
Just to expand mine is the " New Edition" dated 1995. There are two maps:-
1. All the Towns and Villages no parishes.
2. The second all the parishes and boundaries.
Turning to the Index. For each parish:-
Column 1 deposited original records Start and end date.
Column 2 IGI dates included.
Column 3 local marriage indexes range of years.
Column 4 copies of Registers at Society of Genealogists ( SG ) range of years.
Column 5 Boyd's Marriage index. Range of years included.
Column 6 Copiesof Registers not at SG. Range of years.
Column 7 Pallot's marriage index. Range of years included.
Column 8 Non conformist Records at Kew. Range of years.
Column 9 Grid Reference to Parish Map.
This is for every county in England and Regions in Wales and Scotland.
Just to expand mine is the " New Edition" dated 1995. There are two maps:-
1. All the Towns and Villages no parishes.
2. The second all the parishes and boundaries.
Turning to the Index. For each parish:-
Column 1 deposited original records Start and end date.
Column 2 IGI dates included.
Column 3 local marriage indexes range of years.
Column 4 copies of Registers at Society of Genealogists ( SG ) range of years.
Column 5 Boyd's Marriage index. Range of years included.
Column 6 Copiesof Registers not at SG. Range of years.
Column 7 Pallot's marriage index. Range of years included.
Column 8 Non conformist Records at Kew. Range of years.
Column 9 Grid Reference to Parish Map.
This is for every county in England and Regions in Wales and Scotland.
MLFHS: Ahnentafel Numbering (of family
tree members)
The parents of 2 are 4 and 5; of 3 they are 6 and 7; of 4 they are 8 and 9; of 5 they are 10 and 11; and so on. So for a general number n, the father is 2n and the mother (2n+1). Each person has a unique number (or numbers if there have been cousin marriages).
Siblings can be indicated in various ways, such as by a number after a decimal point, or by a letter as Stanley Riley suggests: e.g., the siblings of 2 could be 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 etc. But these could be put in chronological order only when that order has been found - which may take time! A
newly-found sibling could be given a provisional number such 2x until its position in the sequence is known. I have not found any great need to give numbers to siblings - perhaps I will some time!
Stanley's method of indicating generation by prefix letters gets rid of any need to calculate generation number.
Other uses for the ahnentafel system I have since remembered are:
1. A newly-discovered forebear gets a number automatically even when un-named - as with the mother of a child whose baptismal record includes only the father's name.
2. A forebear's number does not change even if the name does, for whatever reason - e.g., getting married, or taking on a step-father's surname.
3. The numbers can be used to distinguish father and son with the same name (e.g., 258 JOE BLOGGS son of 516 JOE BLOGGS) where information gathered does not (yet) clearly distinguish between them (e.g., among the information for 516 could be included something like 'could be son 258') , or even from another JOE BLOGGS of unknown relationship (by means of a distinctive suffix).
4. For an illegitimate forebear (e.g., 87 JOAN BLOGGS, daughter of 175 ELIZABETH BLOGGS, father unknown), the system still applies, but the surname has of course descended from the mother's side.
And don't forget to prefix your numbers with sufficient zeros to make up 6 digits if you want to sort your (potentially a million or so!) forebears in numerical order. (I have omitted them in my examples above for simplicity.)
It would be valuable to hear about the experience of other listers with this system.
The parents of 2 are 4 and 5; of 3 they are 6 and 7; of 4 they are 8 and 9; of 5 they are 10 and 11; and so on. So for a general number n, the father is 2n and the mother (2n+1). Each person has a unique number (or numbers if there have been cousin marriages).
Siblings can be indicated in various ways, such as by a number after a decimal point, or by a letter as Stanley Riley suggests: e.g., the siblings of 2 could be 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 etc. But these could be put in chronological order only when that order has been found - which may take time! A
newly-found sibling could be given a provisional number such 2x until its position in the sequence is known. I have not found any great need to give numbers to siblings - perhaps I will some time!
Stanley's method of indicating generation by prefix letters gets rid of any need to calculate generation number.
Other uses for the ahnentafel system I have since remembered are:
1. A newly-discovered forebear gets a number automatically even when un-named - as with the mother of a child whose baptismal record includes only the father's name.
2. A forebear's number does not change even if the name does, for whatever reason - e.g., getting married, or taking on a step-father's surname.
3. The numbers can be used to distinguish father and son with the same name (e.g., 258 JOE BLOGGS son of 516 JOE BLOGGS) where information gathered does not (yet) clearly distinguish between them (e.g., among the information for 516 could be included something like 'could be son 258') , or even from another JOE BLOGGS of unknown relationship (by means of a distinctive suffix).
4. For an illegitimate forebear (e.g., 87 JOAN BLOGGS, daughter of 175 ELIZABETH BLOGGS, father unknown), the system still applies, but the surname has of course descended from the mother's side.
And don't forget to prefix your numbers with sufficient zeros to make up 6 digits if you want to sort your (potentially a million or so!) forebears in numerical order. (I have omitted them in my examples above for simplicity.)
It would be valuable to hear about the experience of other listers with this system.
Another MLFHS member offered an alternate scheme –
MLFHS: Ahnentafel numbers.
Ahnentafel numbering system. For siblings I use lower case letters: 2a; 2b; 2c; etc.
I use capital letters to show different generations: A1; B2, B3; C4, C5, C6, C7; D8 ? D15, etc.
Regards, Another MLFHS member offered an alternate scheme –
Ahnentafel numbering system. For siblings I use lower case letters: 2a; 2b; 2c; etc.
I use capital letters to show different generations: A1; B2, B3; C4, C5, C6, C7; D8 ? D15, etc.
Regards, Another MLFHS member offered an alternate scheme –
MLFHS: Ahnentafel Numbering System
I have read through several time the method that Graham has used and I have become a little confused. It is probably me and I am trying to work it in the wrong way but in the example shown it records Page 1 with great gr/father at 4 -1/4. Then goes on with a second example of 12/15 with the page being 15 and the person being 12, which I see is the reverse of the 1st example. Have I got it wrong?
Another MLFHS member offered a source –
MLFHS: Ahnentafel Numbering System
Cannot help re
Society article but see www.saintclair.org/numbers/ for a
description of a host of numbering systems
including Ahnentafel.
I can see its use on paper based recording systems which were common pre pc's but it can be a bit cumbersome in my experience. I now just number everybody by the pc produced pedigree page no. and their number on that page, thus 1/4 is my great grandfather on page 1 where no. 1 is my father and 12/15 is person no. 12 on pedigree page 15. All the paper records are filed under that same number thus totally avoiding any confusion with multiple generations use of the same name.
MLFHS: Irish Genealogy.
Welcome to Irish Genealogy News …
Irish genealogy research is famous for being difficult, if not impossible. This reputation isn't entirely deserved, although there can be some fundamental difficulties in discovering your Irish ancestry, particularly if you don't know where your ancestors lived. That's why I launched my website, Irish Genealogy Toolkit. It's a free online guide to Irish family history research, and it's designed to help you to find your heritage.
- See more at: http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/end-of-may-update-from-igp-archives.html#sthash.qQRPAvc8.dpuf
http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/end-of-may-update-from-igp-archives.html
I can see its use on paper based recording systems which were common pre pc's but it can be a bit cumbersome in my experience. I now just number everybody by the pc produced pedigree page no. and their number on that page, thus 1/4 is my great grandfather on page 1 where no. 1 is my father and 12/15 is person no. 12 on pedigree page 15. All the paper records are filed under that same number thus totally avoiding any confusion with multiple generations use of the same name.
MLFHS: Irish Genealogy.
Welcome to Irish Genealogy News …
Irish genealogy research is famous for being difficult, if not impossible. This reputation isn't entirely deserved, although there can be some fundamental difficulties in discovering your Irish ancestry, particularly if you don't know where your ancestors lived. That's why I launched my website, Irish Genealogy Toolkit. It's a free online guide to Irish family history research, and it's designed to help you to find your heritage.
- See more at: http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/end-of-may-update-from-igp-archives.html#sthash.qQRPAvc8.dpuf
http://irish-genealogy-news.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/end-of-may-update-from-igp-archives.html
Colonial Canada
militias - In Canada before 1850 it was obligatory for a
man between 16 and 50 (or 60) to join the Militia. They also had to attend
training at least once a year for which they were paid a small amount of money.
Militia Captains could read and write, were well respected, and served under
the Intendant, who was like the colonial judge and finance minister in one.
They also settled disputes within their community, and got the best pew in
their church. Search community histories, and the Pistard at the Banq website
for your ancestors that were in the Militia.
Source: http://genealogybeyondthebmd.blogspot.com/2014/06/soldiers-and-militia-new-france.html?spref=fb
also see http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/page-211-eng.asp
for data on the Canadian Military History Gateway.
My ancestors in British, and earlier French Canada (Portneuf
County, Quebec and elsewhere) undoubtedly served in Canadian militias.
100 years of McGill University yearbooks digitized
Source – Facebook’s Quebec List Group –
If you have an
ancestor who graduated from Montreal’s McGill University or think you may, take
a look the digitized collection of Old McGill
Yearbooks from 1898 to 2000 that the university has
produced. Also available are the yearbooks for McGill’s Macdonald College for
the years 1933 to 1960. This collection is described on the website as a
“rich resource for family researchers and historians alike, this slice of
McGill’s history provides a unique view of student life, learning and
research.”
----------------------------------------------------------------------
MLFHS: old burial grounds
That's very interesting. I have been looking for a burial between 1768 and 1835, of a man who lived in the Knutsford area of Cheshire for years and whose wife and children are buried at St Johns, I wondered if he might have been a member of a 'sect' who had their own burial grounds or even a private burial somewhere. I know that not all records are on line anyway but also that there were some more obscure places and wondered if these alternatives were listed.
regards MLFHS member
MLFHS: old burial grounds
MLFHS member response - The MLFHS publication A Guide to the Burial Grounds of Manchester and Salford' by Geoff Edge is currently out of print, but Geoff is working on an online version of this. It tries to list all the grounds with details of where registers and MI lists can be found.
Although it does not cover outside Manchester, and does not specifically address the survival of records, my own recent book 'Forgotten Fields' does identify the burial grounds which existed in Manchester township and explains what became of them. This can be obtained from the MLFHS online bookshop at
http://www.bookshop.mlfhs.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_12&products_id=1553
MLFHS: old burial grounds
That's very interesting. I have been looking for a burial between 1768 and 1835, of a man who lived in the Knutsford area of Cheshire for years and whose wife and children are buried at St Johns, I wondered if he might have been a member of a 'sect' who had their own burial grounds or even a private burial somewhere. I know that not all records are on line anyway but also that there were some more obscure places and wondered if these alternatives were listed.
regards MLFHS member
MLFHS: old burial grounds
MLFHS member response - The MLFHS publication A Guide to the Burial Grounds of Manchester and Salford' by Geoff Edge is currently out of print, but Geoff is working on an online version of this. It tries to list all the grounds with details of where registers and MI lists can be found.
Although it does not cover outside Manchester, and does not specifically address the survival of records, my own recent book 'Forgotten Fields' does identify the burial grounds which existed in Manchester township and explains what became of them. This can be obtained from the MLFHS online bookshop at
http://www.bookshop.mlfhs.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_12&products_id=1553
Records of some sort survive for most of them,
though notable exceptions are St. Patrick's RC and the Peter St Swedenborgian
burial ground where burial registers have been lost. Survival of MI transcripts
is also patchy and in some cases, where the memorials still exist, such as Philips
Park and Southern Cemetery, they have not been
recorded. For most, the memorials themselves are long gone.
MLFHS member – See following helpful research links -
www.lancashirebmd.org.uk www.cumbriabmd.org.uk
www.1851-unfilmed.org.uk www.mlfhs.org.uk
MLFHS member – See following helpful research links -
www.lancashirebmd.org.uk www.cumbriabmd.org.uk
www.1851-unfilmed.org.uk www.mlfhs.org.uk
