Check out the website of a Michael Marcotte – perhaps a distant cousin … http://michaelmarcotte.com/ The website identifies many of Michael’s Marcotte ancestors, who possibly connect to those of our cousin Yves Marcotte of Quebec Province.
The entries below are an eclectic mix of posts to the Manchester Liverpool Family History Society (MLFHS) of which I’m a member. Located across the pond the MLFHS has a great deal of information on the area where Thomas Wroe, my great grandfather, was born. Other entries are from my volunteer job at the Central Rappahannock Regional Library (CRRL) located in Fredericksburg, VA. Both CRRL and MLFHS entries are of general genealogical interest, with a bit of English history thrown in. I expect most of you will find the entries extremely boring unless you are a serious history/genealogy buff. Be aware, there will be use of very British terms and spellings (though you may find them amusing).
Check out pages 13 and 14. It incorporates a note I posted to the MLFHS website in hopes of identifying living Wroe cousins. No joy thus far, though another MLFHS member is searching for Wroes also. Our communication suggests no connection as yet.
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
My wife (Southern/East-Anglian born) asked me a question the other day:
"What would you call a small connecting foot pathway between two major streets or roadways?"
A bit of questioning from me found that she meant the sort of little pathway that you would "cut through" to save a bit of time, perhaps when going shopping on foot. She said that it was always called a "snicket" when she was growing up. But it got me thinking what would the Manchester word (or words) have been?
I grew up in Longsight in a terraced "2-up, 2-down" house and we had what we called an "entry" running between the two adjacent streets at the backs of the houses, with a atched wooden backdoor opening onto it. The dustbin men would come and collect our bin each week...and coal delivery trucks arrive from time to time, too. But this wasn't quite what she was meaning.
Thinking about it, perhaps my area wasn't "posh enough" to have "snickets" or alleyways" or whatever. So, can anybody suggest what the Manchester (or other Lanc.s) word would have been...or perhaps still is?
"What would you call a small connecting foot pathway between two major streets or roadways?"
A bit of questioning from me found that she meant the sort of little pathway that you would "cut through" to save a bit of time, perhaps when going shopping on foot. She said that it was always called a "snicket" when she was growing up. But it got me thinking what would the Manchester word (or words) have been?
I grew up in Longsight in a terraced "2-up, 2-down" house and we had what we called an "entry" running between the two adjacent streets at the backs of the houses, with a atched wooden backdoor opening onto it. The dustbin men would come and collect our bin each week...and coal delivery trucks arrive from time to time, too. But this wasn't quite what she was meaning.
Thinking about it, perhaps my area wasn't "posh enough" to have "snickets" or alleyways" or whatever. So, can anybody suggest what the Manchester (or other Lanc.s) word would have been...or perhaps still is?
MLFHS: Thanks for Ginnels, Twittens, Entries, Alleys & Snickets - & 2u-2d
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
This thread is a real jogger of memories. I lived in the village of Rhodes N.E. of Manchester up until early 1960 in a two up, two down and it had a cellar under the kitchen at the back of the house. There was a cobbled paved entry way for service vehicles between the two rows of terraced houses called the back alley. Some of the terraces in the village had a passageway through as described by Colin and these were always called ginnels. In 1964 I moved to the West Riding of Yorkshire and for the first time heard the passageway called a snicket. So it appears it is probably a regional thing.
Incidentally, I went to school in Radcliffe (about six miles away) and it took me all of six months to be able to understand what my classmates who lived in Radcliffe were saying, their accent was so strong!
This thread is a real jogger of memories. I lived in the village of Rhodes N.E. of Manchester up until early 1960 in a two up, two down and it had a cellar under the kitchen at the back of the house. There was a cobbled paved entry way for service vehicles between the two rows of terraced houses called the back alley. Some of the terraces in the village had a passageway through as described by Colin and these were always called ginnels. In 1964 I moved to the West Riding of Yorkshire and for the first time heard the passageway called a snicket. So it appears it is probably a regional thing.
Incidentally, I went to school in Radcliffe (about six miles away) and it took me all of six months to be able to understand what my classmates who lived in Radcliffe were saying, their accent was so strong!
It certainly looks like the commonest Manchester-area word was "ginnel"...but, you know, I have NEVER heard that word before, even as a kid. (And I didn't flee the country 'til I was 25!)
I've passed all this on to my wife...and then she remembered that on one occasion, while visiting a friend in Brighton, she was told to go through the "twitten" ( or possibly "twittern") to get to the bus....which, she later found out, was also the same as ginnel/alley/entry/snicket. Seems twitten's the common word in Sussex.
Turning to the queries about 2-up, 2-downs, I thought I'd offer a few more details which may be of interest to our younger members.
Yes, our 2-up, 2-down house in Longsight was all my parents could get/afford just after WWII. It was in a street (then) called "Watson St", off Matthew's Lane...but later had its name changed to "Maida St".
I've passed all this on to my wife...and then she remembered that on one occasion, while visiting a friend in Brighton, she was told to go through the "twitten" ( or possibly "twittern") to get to the bus....which, she later found out, was also the same as ginnel/alley/entry/snicket. Seems twitten's the common word in Sussex.
Turning to the queries about 2-up, 2-downs, I thought I'd offer a few more details which may be of interest to our younger members.
Yes, our 2-up, 2-down house in Longsight was all my parents could get/afford just after WWII. It was in a street (then) called "Watson St", off Matthew's Lane...but later had its name changed to "Maida St".
Each house had a front door opening into the street and, inwards, to our "Front Room", which was only rarely used...it was kept as "best" for visitors and also Easter & Christmas.
I used to think that this was stupid...because it meant we essentially lived all the time in the other downstairs room which was a kitchen/dining room/Friday-night-bath-in-a-tub room. But perhaps it wasn't too silly: after all, it was the only place we could afford to
heat (coal fire) in Winter....and two fires would have been a lot more expensive.
We would also cook on the coal fire (big 'griddle' in front for the kettle and a side oven for baking). This back room had a gas cooker, too, and a gas "geyser" that dispensed VERY hot water into a brown-stone sink. Overhead, was "the rack" on which our clothes would be drying after being washed and whenever me Mum couldn't hang them out because it was raining...which was frequently.
Out the back was a small back yard who's main features were: a toilet in it's own little 'house', the coal store and an air-raid shelter which was built as shared with the neighbour, but had a dividing wall down the centre so we had a "half-shelter" each. There was also a clothes-line....but (as mentioned above), I think this only got extensively used in Summer.
I can well remember trooping downstairs in the middle of the night to go to the loo and having to light a tiny paraffin lamp for some light. (My father had the only electric torch in the house by his bedside in case my sister - aged 2 - woke up in the night.) Not surprisingly, we had chamber pots under our beds (which we always called "jinkies" the names for which have already been the subject of a most stimulating discussion on this List last year!).
Upstairs there were 2 bedrooms. The bigger (my parents + sister) faced onto the front street; mine was smaller and faced the back yard. It was smaller because it also contained the upper part of the stairway.
My most vivid memory of my bedroom is of waking up on a February morning and seeing the window covered with what must have been a several millimetre thickness of ice, all from my night-breathing....must have been a great dream!
Oh, well.....you try telling that to the young folk now and they won't believe you.....
According to 'shoddy town speak' a ginnel is a narrow passage-way between two
solid, outdoor walls. A snicket is a narrow passage-way between natural growth, hedges or bushes. (Shoddy town is the Heavy Woollen District of West Yorkshire which includes Dewsbury and Batley. Shoddy is rather nice thick woollen cloth.)
solid, outdoor walls. A snicket is a narrow passage-way between natural growth, hedges or bushes. (Shoddy town is the Heavy Woollen District of West Yorkshire which includes Dewsbury and Batley. Shoddy is rather nice thick woollen cloth.)
MLFHS: Ginnels
I believe the word has a hard g and derives from the word used to describe the opening on the sides of earlier wooden warships to allow the cannons to fire broadsides. From this we must assume that a ginnel is an opening between houses to allow access the rear.
I believe the word has a hard g and derives from the word used to describe the opening on the sides of earlier wooden warships to allow the cannons to fire broadsides. From this we must assume that a ginnel is an opening between houses to allow access the rear.
MLFHS: re 2u&2d
Ours in 1955 was a 2up 2down in Middleton £1 per week private mortgage total cost £275. The kitchen was on the street gas light in the living room none up stairs, and if you lit the gas light in the kitchen it swung round and set the curtains on fire. At the front we had a nice bit of garden, the lavatory was down a path in the garden. I was doing my
National Service and my wife drew £2. 5s 6d plus 5shillings family allowance for the second child.
But we got through and have a wonderful family for all the hard work.
Just to join in with the 2 up and 2 down houses , Me and my wifes first house was a back to back house, 1 up and 1 down and the toilets where at the bottom of the street , this was Palmerston st off Lees Rd Oldham in the 1960s we paid £20 pounds down and £1 pound a week untill payed for.
Ours in 1955 was a 2up 2down in Middleton £1 per week private mortgage total cost £275. The kitchen was on the street gas light in the living room none up stairs, and if you lit the gas light in the kitchen it swung round and set the curtains on fire. At the front we had a nice bit of garden, the lavatory was down a path in the garden. I was doing my
National Service and my wife drew £2. 5s 6d plus 5shillings family allowance for the second child.
But we got through and have a wonderful family for all the hard work.
Just to join in with the 2 up and 2 down houses , Me and my wifes first house was a back to back house, 1 up and 1 down and the toilets where at the bottom of the street , this was Palmerston st off Lees Rd Oldham in the 1960s we paid £20 pounds down and £1 pound a week untill payed for.
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
My granny called hills 'brews' (the ones in town that is). As she lived in Salford, I thought it was a Lancashire thing until I heard it used where I lived in Macclesfield. Part of Samuel Street (which had a fairly steep section) was locally known as 'Sam Brew'.
Perhaps it's partly generational as well as geographic - many people in mill towns moved in from different areas to work, bringing their local words with them. My granny's house in Salford had a back entry between the rows of two up two down terraced houses. We had ginnells in Macclesfield to get between the terraced houses to the yards at the back & cinderpaths through the more modern housing estates to get you from between the estate and what remained of the surrounding farmland on to the main roads.
These days the old words seem to have been lost (along with a lot more of our English vocabulary IMHO) and they all seem to be either passageways, paths, or if you're prone to a bit of poetic exaggeration, back lanes.
Perhaps it's partly generational as well as geographic - many people in mill towns moved in from different areas to work, bringing their local words with them. My granny's house in Salford had a back entry between the rows of two up two down terraced houses. We had ginnells in Macclesfield to get between the terraced houses to the yards at the back & cinderpaths through the more modern housing estates to get you from between the estate and what remained of the surrounding farmland on to the main roads.
These days the old words seem to have been lost (along with a lot more of our English vocabulary IMHO) and they all seem to be either passageways, paths, or if you're prone to a bit of poetic exaggeration, back lanes.
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
In the East Riding of Yorkshire the access drive to a garage or back entry is a "ten foot" presumably because they were 10ft wide. I had not heard theterm "entry" in this contaxt until I came to live in Lancashire. It seems now they are just called "drives", but it would be a snicket as a cut through. Another thing that puzzled me when I crossed over the tops was the term " going up the brew". We drank brews at home.
In the East Riding of Yorkshire the access drive to a garage or back entry is a "ten foot" presumably because they were 10ft wide. I had not heard theterm "entry" in this contaxt until I came to live in Lancashire. It seems now they are just called "drives", but it would be a snicket as a cut through. Another thing that puzzled me when I crossed over the tops was the term " going up the brew". We drank brews at home.
MLFHS: Ginnels
The OED does not mention the nautical definition. It has two versions, the first being the channel draining a privy then the more common "A long narrow passage between houses, either roofed or unroofed" so perhaps there is a connection between the two.
MLFHS: Thanks for Ginnels, Twittens, Entries, Alleys &
You house sounds like my Granny's. Except they had a glass & wood lean-to kitchen built on the back between the house and the shelter which meant that the loo was off the kitchen. The sink had been moved to the other side of the original outside wall of the house and drained straight into the original grid under the back window. This had patterend glass pieces held in by nails so that those in the back room couldn't see you having a wash at the sink. The yard drain was also the grid under the sink, so when it
rained, there was a channel running from under the lean-to wall, through the kitchen into the grid. There was a butchers wooden duckboard in front of the sink so that you didn't get your feet wet if it was raining, but you had to stride over the channel if you crossed the kitchen from the door to the gas cooker in the corner. Gran was very proud of the fact that they 'had the electric'. This consisted of a central light in each room and three
sockets. One in the parlour, one in the back room and one in the lean-to for the boiler.
My Gran inherited her mother's piano & the front parlour was so cold & damp, the piano keys had swollen so that they wouldn't move. The only ones which worked were those for playing chopsticks - the only tune I could play as a child.
The back bedroom was as you describe - the bit over the stairs was called the bunker for some reason and was piled high with 'stuff' covered over with a large holland dust sheet. It used to frighten me to death as a child – I was convinced there was 'something' lurking under the bulky shape in the dark.
My mum grew up in that house & there were only ever 4 people living there (Gran's brother Arthur lived with them for a while). Makes you wonder how people managed with a family full of children!
I think you're right when you say that today's 'kids' probably wouldn't believe you - they have no comprehension how hard things used to be. Mind you I think I had it pretty easy by comparison growing up in the 1950's. At least we had more space and a garden even if we still had no spare money for life’s little luxuries.
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
If you are going to live here Jane you must learn the lingo. I think you mean "up th' row" - as in "brow of a hill". We used to live next door to a farm called "Crook a'breast". On the bend at the top of the hill.
"Shoddy" takes me back to my school history lessons. Even now I think - Dewsbury and Batley = shoddy! Was it not made from recycled cloth, hence the name 'shoddy' ie: not new?
The OED does not mention the nautical definition. It has two versions, the first being the channel draining a privy then the more common "A long narrow passage between houses, either roofed or unroofed" so perhaps there is a connection between the two.
MLFHS: Thanks for Ginnels, Twittens, Entries, Alleys &
You house sounds like my Granny's. Except they had a glass & wood lean-to kitchen built on the back between the house and the shelter which meant that the loo was off the kitchen. The sink had been moved to the other side of the original outside wall of the house and drained straight into the original grid under the back window. This had patterend glass pieces held in by nails so that those in the back room couldn't see you having a wash at the sink. The yard drain was also the grid under the sink, so when it
rained, there was a channel running from under the lean-to wall, through the kitchen into the grid. There was a butchers wooden duckboard in front of the sink so that you didn't get your feet wet if it was raining, but you had to stride over the channel if you crossed the kitchen from the door to the gas cooker in the corner. Gran was very proud of the fact that they 'had the electric'. This consisted of a central light in each room and three
sockets. One in the parlour, one in the back room and one in the lean-to for the boiler.
My Gran inherited her mother's piano & the front parlour was so cold & damp, the piano keys had swollen so that they wouldn't move. The only ones which worked were those for playing chopsticks - the only tune I could play as a child.
The back bedroom was as you describe - the bit over the stairs was called the bunker for some reason and was piled high with 'stuff' covered over with a large holland dust sheet. It used to frighten me to death as a child – I was convinced there was 'something' lurking under the bulky shape in the dark.
My mum grew up in that house & there were only ever 4 people living there (Gran's brother Arthur lived with them for a while). Makes you wonder how people managed with a family full of children!
I think you're right when you say that today's 'kids' probably wouldn't believe you - they have no comprehension how hard things used to be. Mind you I think I had it pretty easy by comparison growing up in the 1950's. At least we had more space and a garden even if we still had no spare money for life’s little luxuries.
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
If you are going to live here Jane you must learn the lingo. I think you mean "up th' row" - as in "brow of a hill". We used to live next door to a farm called "Crook a'breast". On the bend at the top of the hill.
"Shoddy" takes me back to my school history lessons. Even now I think - Dewsbury and Batley = shoddy! Was it not made from recycled cloth, hence the name 'shoddy' ie: not new?
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
How do you pronounce "ginnel"? Hard or soft g? Emphasis on first or second part of the word?
Re: ginnels etc. Ginnel has been a commonly-used word for me (in Lancashire) since childhood. I have heard ginnel-gannel - which just seems a bit long winded. Snicket I would think means a shortcut - not quite the same thing - and derived from snick (to cut or make a nick in something).
How do you pronounce "ginnel"? Hard or soft g? Emphasis on first or second part of the word?
Re: ginnels etc. Ginnel has been a commonly-used word for me (in Lancashire) since childhood. I have heard ginnel-gannel - which just seems a bit long winded. Snicket I would think means a shortcut - not quite the same thing - and derived from snick (to cut or make a nick in something).
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
And, another question from America. What is a two-up, two-down house? Did these homes commonly have cellars?
We have dog-trot houses and shotgun houses here.
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
Love dogtrot and shotgun! Two bedrooms UP - two (living room and kitchen) down. Other amenities had not yet been invented but we have a lot of updated (to around late 1800s) houses in Preston, Lancashire. Getting a bit past their sell-by date.
And, another question from America. What is a two-up, two-down house? Did these homes commonly have cellars?
We have dog-trot houses and shotgun houses here.
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
Love dogtrot and shotgun! Two bedrooms UP - two (living room and kitchen) down. Other amenities had not yet been invented but we have a lot of updated (to around late 1800s) houses in Preston, Lancashire. Getting a bit past their sell-by date.
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
two up two down is exactly what it says - 2 rooms upstairs and 2 downstairs. Most likely toilet down the backyard. No cellars or attics. I don't know whereabouts you are from June but I've not heard of those names - I'd say a 2 up 2 down was most like the row houses on the Eastern Seaboard? Like New York or Boston. I've seen them in those
places and they are very similar.
I'd say (with difficulty!) ginnel is pronounced with a hard "g" and pronounced with the emphasis on the "gin" (not to be confused with the spirit drink which is a different pronunciation).
MLFHS: Snickets
My parents moved from Oldham to Bradford in 1936 when I was expected, so I am Yorkshire born of Lancastrian parents. There was a snicket running by our house and it was never called a ginnel apart from Grandma who lived all her life in Oldham I assume therefore that Snicket was Yorkshire and Ginnel Lancastrian?
I also have the book Snickelways of York and have walked them (and in fact when down one only yesterday)
We have 2 up and 2 down houses here, some with cellars but mostly without - depending on the steepness of the street.
We also have "through by windows" which is 2 up and 2 down with no back door but a window facing onto the communal back yard with the privies were
MLFHS: : Entries, Alleys and Snickets (2ux2d)
Have a look at this site---just for fun
http://members.madasafish.com/~cj_whitehound/Fanfic/Spinners_End.htm
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
Our Wrought Iron Gates on the Ginnel were taken for the war effort in the early 1940s. Never replaced, the house was demolished circa 1965 to make way for Royton Precinct.
Wish I had a few photographs.
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
Our ginnel did that too Colin at our first marital home in 1958 in Ashton-under-Lyne. It meant that the two bedrooms were much larger than in the other houses. These terraced houses were about a hundred years old even then. There was a wooden door at the street end of the ginnel, which I hesitate to call a gate as it wasn't see through and was full size.
My experience was in Royton 1937 to 1958, the Ginnel was "ours" because it went underneath our bedrooms. The Coal Merchant and Refuse collection gained access to 12 houses through it. I had never heard the word snicket until we had new neighbours from Bradford when I was 30.
places and they are very similar.
I'd say (with difficulty!) ginnel is pronounced with a hard "g" and pronounced with the emphasis on the "gin" (not to be confused with the spirit drink which is a different pronunciation).
MLFHS: Snickets
My parents moved from Oldham to Bradford in 1936 when I was expected, so I am Yorkshire born of Lancastrian parents. There was a snicket running by our house and it was never called a ginnel apart from Grandma who lived all her life in Oldham I assume therefore that Snicket was Yorkshire and Ginnel Lancastrian?
I also have the book Snickelways of York and have walked them (and in fact when down one only yesterday)
We have 2 up and 2 down houses here, some with cellars but mostly without - depending on the steepness of the street.
We also have "through by windows" which is 2 up and 2 down with no back door but a window facing onto the communal back yard with the privies were
MLFHS: : Entries, Alleys and Snickets (2ux2d)
Have a look at this site---just for fun
http://members.madasafish.com/~cj_whitehound/Fanfic/Spinners_End.htm
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
Our Wrought Iron Gates on the Ginnel were taken for the war effort in the early 1940s. Never replaced, the house was demolished circa 1965 to make way for Royton Precinct.
Wish I had a few photographs.
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
Our ginnel did that too Colin at our first marital home in 1958 in Ashton-under-Lyne. It meant that the two bedrooms were much larger than in the other houses. These terraced houses were about a hundred years old even then. There was a wooden door at the street end of the ginnel, which I hesitate to call a gate as it wasn't see through and was full size.
My experience was in Royton 1937 to 1958, the Ginnel was "ours" because it went underneath our bedrooms. The Coal Merchant and Refuse collection gained access to 12 houses through it. I had never heard the word snicket until we had new neighbours from Bradford when I was 30.
MLFHS: Ginnels, tenfoots and back passages!
I know this is now a well discussed subject but I was thinking about it again last night and thought "has anyone Googled this yet?". Well I have and found this web site. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tenfoot.
"Term used in Hull to describe the wide alley bewteen houses of the city. Named so because of its width" It also defines "ginnel", which it suggests is mainly a northern term . http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ginnel"A narrow alley. Usually leading through a row of terraced houses in order to connect the street (in front of the row of houses) to the "back alley" (running between this row of houses and the next). "
and "snicket" http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snicket
Partially vegetated alleyway or cut through in the north of England, usually with bollards at both ends and is poorly lit.
Does not this make you proud of our colourful English language? Us older ones struggle with some of the modern vocabulary but these words and phrases must all have similar origins. It gives other options such as a "flutester" which is a "small ginnel" and which I have never heard of, plus other colloquial but less savoury definitions of things.
Just another contribution and thought for the day.
MLFHS - double sided birth certificate
thanks for all that about stamps. Hadn't realised that revenue vanished for a while during Edward VIII's reign.
I know this is now a well discussed subject but I was thinking about it again last night and thought "has anyone Googled this yet?". Well I have and found this web site. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tenfoot.
"Term used in Hull to describe the wide alley bewteen houses of the city. Named so because of its width" It also defines "ginnel", which it suggests is mainly a northern term . http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ginnel"A narrow alley. Usually leading through a row of terraced houses in order to connect the street (in front of the row of houses) to the "back alley" (running between this row of houses and the next). "
and "snicket" http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snicket
Partially vegetated alleyway or cut through in the north of England, usually with bollards at both ends and is poorly lit.
Does not this make you proud of our colourful English language? Us older ones struggle with some of the modern vocabulary but these words and phrases must all have similar origins. It gives other options such as a "flutester" which is a "small ginnel" and which I have never heard of, plus other colloquial but less savoury definitions of things.
Just another contribution and thought for the day.
MLFHS - double sided birth certificate
thanks for all that about stamps. Hadn't realised that revenue vanished for a while during Edward VIII's reign.
MLFHS double sided birth certificate
For years the only birth cert. my mother had was a short form (issued 1888). The back bears the words: "NOTICE This Certificate when duly filled up by the Registrar is to be given on demand to the INFORMANT at the time of Registering the Birth on payment of a Fee not exceeding Threepence. (See Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1876, Section 30.)" My grandmother was not one to spend 2/7 where 3d would do!
From my earliest youth all the British stamps I saw had "Postage & Revenue"incorporated somewhere in the design. This was started in 1851, indicating that the same stamps could be used for postage and for tax purposes. (Different stamps, however, were used for patent medicines and for National Insurance unemployment and sickness insurance cards.) With a few odd exceptions, eg the London Postal Union Congress commemoratives, this continued up to the brief reign of Edward VIII, but resumed with George VI.
Another feature of British postage stamps is that they don't bear the name of the country. Why should they?—we invented them! so when the first ones were issued, all adhesive postage stamps in the world were British: they didn't need the country on them. And the tradition has continued.
Among the various uses were the 1p tax on bmd certs: my own (original) b ct bears an adhesive penny stamp, whereas a second issued in 1969 has an embossed seal inscribed "General Register Office, England" no doubt representing the 1p. Receipts of £2 value and over had to be signed over a 2d stamp to be legal. (Still in force in 1950.) In our elementary school, for sums, we calculated and made out receipts, and were made to draw a stamp if the total came to more than £1- 19-11. 6d was levied on certain contracts, eg in 1951 I had to get the parents of pupils on a school trip to sign a form of indemnity over a 6d stamp. The 2d duty on cheques was embossed into the cheque—if you made a mistake on the cheque and had to do it again, it cost you 2d; and the Treasury was 2d better off.
As a boy I was a keen philatelist. And even now I can't bear to throw them away. I used to collect them and take them to my doctor's surgery, where they were collecting them for a charity; unfortunately they stopped doing it. Does anyone know of a similar collecting scheme I could send them to?
For years the only birth cert. my mother had was a short form (issued 1888). The back bears the words: "NOTICE This Certificate when duly filled up by the Registrar is to be given on demand to the INFORMANT at the time of Registering the Birth on payment of a Fee not exceeding Threepence. (See Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1876, Section 30.)" My grandmother was not one to spend 2/7 where 3d would do!
From my earliest youth all the British stamps I saw had "Postage & Revenue"incorporated somewhere in the design. This was started in 1851, indicating that the same stamps could be used for postage and for tax purposes. (Different stamps, however, were used for patent medicines and for National Insurance unemployment and sickness insurance cards.) With a few odd exceptions, eg the London Postal Union Congress commemoratives, this continued up to the brief reign of Edward VIII, but resumed with George VI.
Another feature of British postage stamps is that they don't bear the name of the country. Why should they?—we invented them! so when the first ones were issued, all adhesive postage stamps in the world were British: they didn't need the country on them. And the tradition has continued.
Among the various uses were the 1p tax on bmd certs: my own (original) b ct bears an adhesive penny stamp, whereas a second issued in 1969 has an embossed seal inscribed "General Register Office, England" no doubt representing the 1p. Receipts of £2 value and over had to be signed over a 2d stamp to be legal. (Still in force in 1950.) In our elementary school, for sums, we calculated and made out receipts, and were made to draw a stamp if the total came to more than £1- 19-11. 6d was levied on certain contracts, eg in 1951 I had to get the parents of pupils on a school trip to sign a form of indemnity over a 6d stamp. The 2d duty on cheques was embossed into the cheque—if you made a mistake on the cheque and had to do it again, it cost you 2d; and the Treasury was 2d better off.
As a boy I was a keen philatelist. And even now I can't bear to throw them away. I used to collect them and take them to my doctor's surgery, where they were collecting them for a charity; unfortunately they stopped doing it. Does anyone know of a similar collecting scheme I could send them to?
MLFHS - Brow v. Brew
You're absolutely right Frank, I did mean Tanyard Brow. I pass Pin Mill Brow regularly, where Pin Mill used to be, must have it embedded in my mind. That one wouldn't have been such a challenge even to a learner driver. Sorry for the mix up.
hi listers - got it wrong about Pin mill brow. tan yard brow is in gorton and pin mill brow is in ardwick and yes we call them brews/ BTW small hills in stockport are called bonks
hi listers - got it wrong about Pin mill brow. tan yard brow is in gorton and pin mill brow is in ardwick and yes we call them brews/ BTW small hills in stockport are called bonks
MLFHS: Ginnels
I would have thought the nautical word would have been gunnel (gunwale) where the cannon were placed?
I would have thought the nautical word would have been gunnel (gunwale) where the cannon were placed?
MLFHS Brow v. Brew
In Gorton there is Pin Mill Brow, a steep hill feared at the time by those of us who took our driving test on that route as the examiners used it for the hill start. Pin Mill Brow is the actual name. In between Ashton and Oldham we have Bardsley Brew where the main road climbs between the two towns. That is just a traditional nickname as far as I know. I can see no actual difference between the two, they are both roads going uphill.
MLFHS Brow v. Brew
My granny called hills 'brews' (the ones in town that is). As she lived in Salford, I thought it was a Lancashire thing until I heard it used where I lived in Macclesfield. Part of Samuel Street (which had a fairly steep section) was locally known as 'Sam Brew'.
from N Wales, where we have lots of footpaths, bridleways& tracks.
from N Wales, where we have lots of footpaths, bridleways& tracks.
MLFHS: Entries, Alleys and Snickets
"Back Entry" of "Back Alley" are the two I remember best from my Newton Heath days.
Pin Mill Brow oh how can three little words strike such terror there should have been a health warning, but "brew" and "brow" have always been interchangeable as far as I am concerned near me Berry Brow and Pop Brew
The only other one I remember is my Dad calling people "Yonners" meaning they were born up yon hill (Oldham)a long drag uphill from the lowland Heath
"Back Entry" of "Back Alley" are the two I remember best from my Newton Heath days.
Pin Mill Brow oh how can three little words strike such terror there should have been a health warning, but "brew" and "brow" have always been interchangeable as far as I am concerned near me Berry Brow and Pop Brew
The only other one I remember is my Dad calling people "Yonners" meaning they were born up yon hill (Oldham)a long drag uphill from the lowland Heath
MLFHS: ginnels
There are also Lonnings, which I discovered in Cumbria when searching for old grave yards. A lonning is an unsurfaced track, ie bridle way or farm track, many of which are narrow, the wider ones have sadly, been tarmaced.
There are also Lonnings, which I discovered in Cumbria when searching for old grave yards. A lonning is an unsurfaced track, ie bridle way or farm track, many of which are narrow, the wider ones have sadly, been tarmaced.
MLFHS: Thanks for Ginnels, Twittens, Entries, Alleys & Snickets - & 2u-2d
That area over the stairs, covered by a curtain, was called a bing in Bolton.
That area over the stairs, covered by a curtain, was called a bing in Bolton.
MLFHS: Thanks for Ginnels, Twittens, Entries, Alleys & Snickets - & 2u-2d
Your house sounds like my Granny's. Except they had a glass & wood lean-to kitchen built on the back between the house and the shelter which meant that the loo was off the kitchen. The sink had been moved to the other side of the original outside wall of the house and drained straight into the original grid under the back window. This had patterned glass pieces held in by nails so that those in the back room couldn't see you having a wash at the sink. The yard drain was also the grid under the sink, so when it
rained, there was a channel running from under the lean-to wall, through the kitchen into the grid. There was a butcher’s wooden duckboard in front of the sink so that you didn't get your feet wet if it was raining, but you had to stride over the channel if you crossed the kitchen from the door to the gas cooker in the corner. Gran was very proud of the fact that they 'had the electric'. This consisted of a central light in each room and three sockets. One in the parlour, one in the back room and one in the lean-to for the boiler.
My Gran inherited her mother's piano & the front parlour was so cold & damp, the piano keys had swollen so that they wouldn't move. The only ones which worked were those for playing chopsticks - the only tune I could play as a child.
The back bedroom was as you describe - the bit over the stairs was called the bunker for some reason and was piled high with 'stuff' covered over with a large holland dust sheet. It used to frighten me to death as a child – I was convinced there was 'something' lurking under the bulky shape in the dark.
My mum grew up in that house & there were only ever 4 people living there (Gran's brother Arthur lived with them for a while). Makes you wonder how people managed with a family full of children!
I think you're right when you say that today's 'kids' probably wouldn't believe you - they have no comprehension how hard things used to be. Mind you I think I had it pretty easy by comparison growing up in the 1950's. At least we had more space and a garden even if we still had no spare money for life’s little luxuries.
MLFHS - Ginnel Band
My last word on Ginnel stories. Have a look at this Ginnel Band, Spring Garden St Royton circa 1950. > www.ecwood.co.uk/Ginnel.jpg
rained, there was a channel running from under the lean-to wall, through the kitchen into the grid. There was a butcher’s wooden duckboard in front of the sink so that you didn't get your feet wet if it was raining, but you had to stride over the channel if you crossed the kitchen from the door to the gas cooker in the corner. Gran was very proud of the fact that they 'had the electric'. This consisted of a central light in each room and three sockets. One in the parlour, one in the back room and one in the lean-to for the boiler.
My Gran inherited her mother's piano & the front parlour was so cold & damp, the piano keys had swollen so that they wouldn't move. The only ones which worked were those for playing chopsticks - the only tune I could play as a child.
The back bedroom was as you describe - the bit over the stairs was called the bunker for some reason and was piled high with 'stuff' covered over with a large holland dust sheet. It used to frighten me to death as a child – I was convinced there was 'something' lurking under the bulky shape in the dark.
My mum grew up in that house & there were only ever 4 people living there (Gran's brother Arthur lived with them for a while). Makes you wonder how people managed with a family full of children!
I think you're right when you say that today's 'kids' probably wouldn't believe you - they have no comprehension how hard things used to be. Mind you I think I had it pretty easy by comparison growing up in the 1950's. At least we had more space and a garden even if we still had no spare money for life’s little luxuries.
MLFHS - Ginnel Band
My last word on Ginnel stories. Have a look at this Ginnel Band, Spring Garden St Royton circa 1950. > www.ecwood.co.uk/Ginnel.jpg
MLFHS: Ginnel Band
I just love the ginnel band picture! That's ME with the trumpet! And I think it could be Bob Th with the guitar? But who would be the best candidate on our List for the wide-open mouth chappie on the far right?!
I just love the ginnel band picture! That's ME with the trumpet! And I think it could be Bob Th with the guitar? But who would be the best candidate on our List for the wide-open mouth chappie on the far right?!
Eat your heart out The Beatles!! Cheers
MLFHS: ginnels etc
Hello listers - What a wealth of memories from a simple enquiry!
When I was studying in Newcastle-upon –Tyne, (1949-50) our Social Studies group was taken round examples of back-to-back housing; I don't know if they're still there. There were also blocks with two dwellings one above the other—kind of flats ("apartments" across the pond!) with separate entrances, the upper one being accessed by an internal staircase from the front door, and with a back door leading down a set of stone steps to the ground. I forget the name they had for them.
I was born and lived for 7 years in a 2u2d in the Arsley Bridge area of Bolton. The living room was at the front, and contained an old-fashioned kitchen range, which we replaced with a more modern fireplace. Water heating by back boiler. I remember the gas lighting, which we later changed to electric light. Kitchen at the back, without any heating, opening on to a flagged yard, at the end of which was a building housing the ash-pit and what Grandma (who lived with us) would have called "the petty" (Fr "petite piece", the small room). This contained a waste-water closet, flushed whenever anyone pulled the plug to let the water out of the kitchen sink (a porcelaine sink, known as the "slopstone".)
The stairs ran up between these two rooms (parallel with the street); and unlike my ex-colleague who was born in a 2u2d in Sheffield, we had a bathroom above the stairs and between two bedrooms, with a door to each. (Posh! No need for the tin bath!) Understair storage was accessed from the kitchen. We thought we were really posh when we installed a gas cooker, and bought an electric iron (needed when we changed the fireplace.) Unfortunately, then came the Great Depression, and 2 years of unemployment.
We moved to Silverdale (N. Lancashire). There, near my home, was (and probably still is) a terrace of five houses, with a passage ("passage" or "alley" locally" running through between no 2 and no 3. This was about 1 metre wide, cobbled, running beneath part of a bedroom, and gave access to a cinder path between the houses and their back gardens to allow the shovelling out of the dry privies. There was a lovely echo in the passage: my pal and I loved to shout as we ran down it. (Noisy kids!)
Times change. In many ways my grandchildren don't know they're born! But what a wonderful flood of memories you listers have evoked!
Hello listers - What a wealth of memories from a simple enquiry!
When I was studying in Newcastle-upon –Tyne, (1949-50) our Social Studies group was taken round examples of back-to-back housing; I don't know if they're still there. There were also blocks with two dwellings one above the other—kind of flats ("apartments" across the pond!) with separate entrances, the upper one being accessed by an internal staircase from the front door, and with a back door leading down a set of stone steps to the ground. I forget the name they had for them.
I was born and lived for 7 years in a 2u2d in the Arsley Bridge area of Bolton. The living room was at the front, and contained an old-fashioned kitchen range, which we replaced with a more modern fireplace. Water heating by back boiler. I remember the gas lighting, which we later changed to electric light. Kitchen at the back, without any heating, opening on to a flagged yard, at the end of which was a building housing the ash-pit and what Grandma (who lived with us) would have called "the petty" (Fr "petite piece", the small room). This contained a waste-water closet, flushed whenever anyone pulled the plug to let the water out of the kitchen sink (a porcelaine sink, known as the "slopstone".)
The stairs ran up between these two rooms (parallel with the street); and unlike my ex-colleague who was born in a 2u2d in Sheffield, we had a bathroom above the stairs and between two bedrooms, with a door to each. (Posh! No need for the tin bath!) Understair storage was accessed from the kitchen. We thought we were really posh when we installed a gas cooker, and bought an electric iron (needed when we changed the fireplace.) Unfortunately, then came the Great Depression, and 2 years of unemployment.
We moved to Silverdale (N. Lancashire). There, near my home, was (and probably still is) a terrace of five houses, with a passage ("passage" or "alley" locally" running through between no 2 and no 3. This was about 1 metre wide, cobbled, running beneath part of a bedroom, and gave access to a cinder path between the houses and their back gardens to allow the shovelling out of the dry privies. There was a lovely echo in the passage: my pal and I loved to shout as we ran down it. (Noisy kids!)
Times change. In many ways my grandchildren don't know they're born! But what a wonderful flood of memories you listers have evoked!
CRRL - [Genealib] Online Birth and Marriage Indexes - Latest Updates
The Online Birth and Marriage Records Indexes Directory (USA) has been
updated with new links. You can see a list of the new additions here:
http://genrootsblog.blogspot.com/2011/05/online-birth-and-marriage-records.h
tml Or: http://goo.gl/RqkUT
The Online Birth and Marriage Records Indexes Directory (USA) has been
updated with new links. You can see a list of the new additions here:
http://genrootsblog.blogspot.com/2011/05/online-birth-and-marriage-records.h
tml Or: http://goo.gl/RqkUT
MLFHS: FFHS-NEWS Titanic descendants
The following is sent on behalf of Titanic Heritage Trust
As the 100th Anniversary of Titanic approaches, Titanic Heritage Trust are
pleased to announce the creation of a database of descendants of survivors
and of all those who were lost on 15th April 1912. If anyone has a connection or knows someone who has a connection with the
Titanic please contact us.
Also, as part of the 100th Anniversary events are being planned; we are
hoping to get together in one place as many as possible of the descendants
of survivors and any descendants of those who were lost when Titanic sank.
If you have any information which would help us please contact:
Howard Nelson, Titanic Heritage Trust, The TechnoCentre, Puma Way, Coventry
CV1 2TT. Telephone: 024 76236556, Email: http://us.mc1124.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=enquiries@titanicheritagetrust.org.uk
MLFHS: FFHS-NEWS FindmyPast launches new death indexes to complete their set of BMD indexes
Thanks to Chris Paton for drawing my attention to the following via his
Scottish GENES (GEnealogy News and EventS) blog at http://scottishancestry.blogspot.com/
FindmyPast (www.findmypast.co.uk <http://www.findmypast.co.uk/> ) has
completed the upgrade of its English and Welsh BMD databases with a new
fully searchable death index search facility.
The following can now be searched in one go:
England & Wales deaths 1837-2006
British nationals died overseas 1818-2005
British nationals armed forces deaths 1796-2005
British nationals died at sea 1854-1890
For more see
http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/2011/05/try-our-new-and-improved-death-records-
search/
FFHS-MEMBERS British Library's Colindale Newspaper Library
Once again I have to thank Chris Paton
(http://scottishancestry.blogspot.com/) for alerting me to an interesting news item. This time it relates to the digitisation project at the British Library's Colindale Newspaper Library.
Launching in Autumn 2011, the British Newspaper Archive will make millions of pages of historical newspapers available online for the first time - unlocking a treasure trove of material for historians, researchers, genealogists, students and anyone interested in when, where and how our ancestors lived and key periods of historical interest. You can read more about this at http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ . There is a link to some examples of the sort of information that will be available. You can also register to be kept informed of when the newspapers go online.
The following is sent on behalf of Titanic Heritage Trust
As the 100th Anniversary of Titanic approaches, Titanic Heritage Trust are
pleased to announce the creation of a database of descendants of survivors
and of all those who were lost on 15th April 1912. If anyone has a connection or knows someone who has a connection with the
Titanic please contact us.
Also, as part of the 100th Anniversary events are being planned; we are
hoping to get together in one place as many as possible of the descendants
of survivors and any descendants of those who were lost when Titanic sank.
If you have any information which would help us please contact:
Howard Nelson, Titanic Heritage Trust, The TechnoCentre, Puma Way, Coventry
CV1 2TT. Telephone: 024 76236556, Email: http://us.mc1124.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=enquiries@titanicheritagetrust.org.uk
MLFHS: FFHS-NEWS FindmyPast launches new death indexes to complete their set of BMD indexes
Thanks to Chris Paton for drawing my attention to the following via his
Scottish GENES (GEnealogy News and EventS) blog at http://scottishancestry.blogspot.com/
FindmyPast (www.findmypast.co.uk <http://www.findmypast.co.uk/> ) has
completed the upgrade of its English and Welsh BMD databases with a new
fully searchable death index search facility.
The following can now be searched in one go:
England & Wales deaths 1837-2006
British nationals died overseas 1818-2005
British nationals armed forces deaths 1796-2005
British nationals died at sea 1854-1890
For more see
http://blog.findmypast.co.uk/2011/05/try-our-new-and-improved-death-records-
search/
FFHS-MEMBERS British Library's Colindale Newspaper Library
Once again I have to thank Chris Paton
(http://scottishancestry.blogspot.com/) for alerting me to an interesting news item. This time it relates to the digitisation project at the British Library's Colindale Newspaper Library.
Launching in Autumn 2011, the British Newspaper Archive will make millions of pages of historical newspapers available online for the first time - unlocking a treasure trove of material for historians, researchers, genealogists, students and anyone interested in when, where and how our ancestors lived and key periods of historical interest. You can read more about this at http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ . There is a link to some examples of the sort of information that will be available. You can also register to be kept informed of when the newspapers go online.
MLFHS - looking for Wroe cousins in UK
Hi all,
My name is Don Rowe (MLFHS member #18768) and though my name is now spelled Rowe, my great grandparents left England in 1850s with the Wroe spelling. I'm looking to identify any Wroes in or near Manchester who are related to this line:
Hi all,
My name is Don Rowe (MLFHS member #18768) and though my name is now spelled Rowe, my great grandparents left England in 1850s with the Wroe spelling. I'm looking to identify any Wroes in or near Manchester who are related to this line:
I am the son of:
Daniel Mannix Rowe, MD (born Portland, Maine 14 June 1893) and Bridget (Bryde) Bernadine O’Connor (born 30 March 1905 Skehanagh, Caherdaniel, Kerry, Ireland)
Daniel Mannix Rowe, MD (born Portland, Maine 14 June 1893) and Bridget (Bryde) Bernadine O’Connor (born 30 March 1905 Skehanagh, Caherdaniel, Kerry, Ireland)
Grandson of:
William Joseph Rowe (born 6 June 1853 at sea enroute Boston) and Catherine Ellen Shanaghan (Shannon) (born 25 April 1852 St Basil parish, Portneuf County, Quebec, Canada)
William Joseph Rowe (born 6 June 1853 at sea enroute Boston) and Catherine Ellen Shanaghan (Shannon) (born 25 April 1852 St Basil parish, Portneuf County, Quebec, Canada)
Great grandson of
Thomas Rowe (born Wroe March 1830 Manchester, Lancashire, England)) and Mary Ellen Meagher (born abt 1830/32 Ireland)
Great great grandson of:
Richard Wroe (born 1800 Cheetham, Manchester, Lancashire, England) and Margaret Stansfield (born 1800 Workington, Cumberland, England)
Thanks, Don
PS - love the terms snickets, brew and brow, ginnels ... will incorporate into my HICUZ Blog.
MLFHS: Cheshire Land Tax Assessments
I have acquired several references to these Assessments relevent to family members in Cheshire around the late 1700s to the early 1800s, all from the LDS site. Is there any way of seeing the detail of these records or do I have to see the originals in Chester or find someone to look them up ?
I ask because there seem to be ways and means of accessing more detail on the LDS site, if one knows the routine. Any guidance much appreciated.
I ask because there seem to be ways and means of accessing more detail on the LDS site, if one knows the routine. Any guidance much appreciated.
MLFHS: Cheshire Land Tax Assessments
I have several refs myself for Tabley- Knutsford & Rosthenre. When I contacted the Cheshire Record office, they said that only the name of the owner appears, though it might be let on long term lease (99years). There is no information on use or occupation., and it seems very little more than appears on the LDS site.
I am sure that is not the case for all areas though. Let me know if you find anything please.
I am sure that is not the case for all areas though. Let me know if you find anything please.
MLFHS: Cheshire Land Tax Assessments
There are some details of what your Land Tax returns are likely to reveal on my website, about half way down the page on the right-hand side:
tamesidefamilyhistory.co.uk/contents.htm
These records are at Chester RO and in some local Cheshire Libraries on microfilm - they run from around 1780-1832 some years are missing. Normally they are just a list of names of owners and occupiers of land and amounts charged, but around the middle of the 1790s, and again towards the end they often contain approximate address e.g. name of farm. I just picked one year for each of the townships in my area, where they were easy to read and included addresses, for the example transcriptions on my website.
I found that the collector of this tax followed more or less the same route each year so you can often follow change of ownership of property. It is rather a good indication of social status at the time. Incidentally, I have followed the routes the collectors of this tax followed and there is a lot of similarity with the routes the 1851 Census Enumerators followed.
tamesidefamilyhistory.co.uk/contents.htm
These records are at Chester RO and in some local Cheshire Libraries on microfilm - they run from around 1780-1832 some years are missing. Normally they are just a list of names of owners and occupiers of land and amounts charged, but around the middle of the 1790s, and again towards the end they often contain approximate address e.g. name of farm. I just picked one year for each of the townships in my area, where they were easy to read and included addresses, for the example transcriptions on my website.
I found that the collector of this tax followed more or less the same route each year so you can often follow change of ownership of property. It is rather a good indication of social status at the time. Incidentally, I have followed the routes the collectors of this tax followed and there is a lot of similarity with the routes the 1851 Census Enumerators followed.
MLFHS: Cheshire Land Tax Assessments
Land Tax was collected much earlier but very few lists actually survived and
these were mostly found in the deposited records of the local landed family.
They were collected more systematically between 1780 and 1832, because
payment of Land Tax was evidence of being eligible to vote and copies were
lodged with the Clerk of the Peace who used these lists to see who was
entitled to vote.
Have you tried looking for WILLS?
Land Tax was collected much earlier but very few lists actually survived and
these were mostly found in the deposited records of the local landed family.
They were collected more systematically between 1780 and 1832, because
payment of Land Tax was evidence of being eligible to vote and copies were
lodged with the Clerk of the Peace who used these lists to see who was
entitled to vote.
Have you tried looking for WILLS?
http://archivedatabases.cheshire.gov.uk/RecordOfficeWillEPayments/search.aspx
<http://archivedatabases.cheshire.gov.uk/RecordOfficeWillEPayments/search.aspx>To
start looking for earlier records you are going to have to become more familiar with using the National Archives website:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
It takes some time learning to use the site, but it does gateway through to archives all over the country. It's also worth getting hold of some family history reference work such as Mark Herber's "Ancestral Trails"
Apart from Parish Registers and Wills and Gravestone Inscriptions most surviving 17th and 18th century records are only very patchy and cover only a few years such as Heath Tax Records 1664/1665 and occasional tenancy and lease agreements. or you might find Poor Law Tax Assessments, Protestation Returns, Manorial Court or Church Court records etc. etc.
Sorry but it gets very complicated from now on - no magic catch all website etc. I would try and make myself familiar with what the Tatton Muniments contain at Rylands Library:
http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/searchresources/guidetospecialcollections/atoz/tatton/
Perhaps they could provide you with a catalogued list. I'd also try and find out what records are held at Chester RO for Rostherne and Knutsford.
<http://archivedatabases.cheshire.gov.uk/RecordOfficeWillEPayments/search.aspx>To
start looking for earlier records you are going to have to become more familiar with using the National Archives website:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
It takes some time learning to use the site, but it does gateway through to archives all over the country. It's also worth getting hold of some family history reference work such as Mark Herber's "Ancestral Trails"
Apart from Parish Registers and Wills and Gravestone Inscriptions most surviving 17th and 18th century records are only very patchy and cover only a few years such as Heath Tax Records 1664/1665 and occasional tenancy and lease agreements. or you might find Poor Law Tax Assessments, Protestation Returns, Manorial Court or Church Court records etc. etc.
Sorry but it gets very complicated from now on - no magic catch all website etc. I would try and make myself familiar with what the Tatton Muniments contain at Rylands Library:
http://www.library.manchester.ac.uk/searchresources/guidetospecialcollections/atoz/tatton/
Perhaps they could provide you with a catalogued list. I'd also try and find out what records are held at Chester RO for Rostherne and Knutsford.
MLFHS: Cheshire Land Tax Assessments
Every Land Tax assessment I have seen shows the owner of the land, the occupier and the amount of tax chargeable as minimum information, but a few years around the middle of the 1790 and again towards the end of the period (1832) often give an approximate address. Why not try ordering a copy of one year around 1795 or 1830 to see for yourself what they contain for your area of Cheshire.
MLFHS: Marriage in 1738
Not wishing to cast aspersions (or nasturtiums as my mother used to say), but your chap sounds to me as though he was the sort who had no intention of ever tying himself down in marriage until he was forced into it at the ripe old age of 38. Smacks of shotgun wedding to me!
Have you tried looking at baptisms of illegitimate children in the parish -
he may have had a mention at some point - you never know. It might also be
worth having a look to see if there were any Bastardy Bonds naming him.
MLFHS: Marriage in 1738
I have found a book on family and social history in the 17 & 18th centuries. It says that about a third of men didn't marry especially if they had wealthy elder siblings, because whilst they were alive and single they were entitled to live in the family home. Since these two didn't have much money of their own -- unless they married a wealthy wife, the alternative was living as the poor relation in a cottage or going into a trade.
The elder brother who became a shoemaker obviously had a paid apprenticeship but didn't marry until he was 29, and Jeffrey until he was 38. That isn't to say he stayed home alone! Or perhaps it was just too hard to /difficult to marry and provided for a family. I don’t know when the father died-or if he assisted in anyway. The papers for this period are pretty thin on the ground.
The shoemaker is on the tax assessment lists for Tabley, but I understand they don't give more than the name of the property owner--which may be the cousin.
MLFHS: Marriage in 1738
I believe it wasn't uncommon in those days for men to "try out" women to see if they were able to conceive a child before marrying them - hence a lot of marriages either just before or even after the birth of the first child. Maybe Jeffrey hadn't struck lucky with earlier attempts! (apologies for the sexism, but that was the way things were).
MLFHS: The disappearing LDS records
A friend of mine has just emailed the LDS about the disappearing records from the familysearch site and I thought the List members might like to see the reply she got from them. This is what they said:
Thank you for contacting familysearch.org with your question regarding problems with Lancashire records.
"This is a known issue, however, we would like the engineers to know just how extensive it is. We would appreciate your sending us the locality(ies) and url(s) giving you problems. Then we can forward that (those) to the engineers, who need to know exactly the extent of the problem.
We look forward to hearing from you."
We look forward to hearing from you."
I then replied with some url's and registers, and said that from playing around with it, the problem seems to occur with registers from 1813 onwards, though some are ok. I gave them an example of one where everything works, and a couple that didn't.
I then received another reply during the evening as follows:
Just what we needed! Thank you for your help. Your letter will be forwarded to our engineers, who may be working on this right now.
We appreciate your help in our efforts to provide accurate records."
I then received another reply during the evening as follows:
Just what we needed! Thank you for your help. Your letter will be forwarded to our engineers, who may be working on this right now.
We appreciate your help in our efforts to provide accurate records."
