HI CUZ 88

MLFHS: Civil registry marriage record help

My initial 22 March posting asking for help – 22 March 2012

MLFHS: Civil registry marriage record help

All,
I am trying to locate any record of the marriage of my great grandparents, Thomas Wroe (born?8 March?1830 in Manchester, chr 21 March at Manchester Cathedral) to Mary Ellen Meagher, born Ireland 1834. 

Ancestry search has a civil registry notation, reg district Manchester, Lancashire County, Jul-Aug-Sep 1852, Volume 8D and page 637 ... but I have been unable to get to the record. I expect one or more of Thomas' siblings might have been present or a witness. Any details would be most welcome. 

Don Rowe

MLFHS: Civil registry marriage record help

Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 8:44 PM
Hi, Don,

Lancashire BMD (www.lancashirebmd.org.uk has the entry -
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1852
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference   WROE Thomas MOHAR Mary Manchester Register Office or Registrar Attended Manchester MCR_RM/25/23

The surname MOHAR is probably a phonetic rendering of MEAGHER.  This marriage took place either in the Register Office (not very common at that time) or in a non-Anglican chapel.  The latter term includes ALL other chapels, Unitarian, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, etc.  The only way to access the information on this certificate whether from the GRO or the Manchester RO is the purchase a certified copy of the entry.

Hope this is some help

MLFHS member – name removed (of Bury, in Lancastershire county) 22 March 2012

MLFHS: Civil registry marriage record help – another response

Hi, You wrote -

Both FreeBMD and LancsBMD have Thomas Wroe & Mary Mohar (possible 
mis-transcription of Meagher).

As BOTH FreeBMD (= GRO Index) and LancsBMD (= Manchester RO) have MOHAR, then this is what was recorded at the time in the original Register, and so is not a mis-transcription.  This record will reflect what the Registrar heard and so the bride and groom probably only knew their names as spoken names and not written names.  This spelling sounds the same as the name of boys at school with me who spelt their name MEAGHER.  MAHER is another alternative spelling.  Given a variety of local pronunciations, it could be represented as MAYOR or MAIR.

Hope this helps

Another MLFHS member – name removed - 22 March 2012

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First cousin once removed Scott Rowe has been doing some fine research using ancestry.com, the US Federal 1930 census, trade directories, and uncovering family and their friends in and around Portland Maine. With the 1940 US census now available lets see what other data springs loose.

For those stalwarts with a detective bent, I recommend joining the Manchester Liverpool Family History Society (MLFHS) as a means to trace our Wroe roots. Another avenue (which I’ve tried again without any response) is to subscribe to a Roots Web bulletin board on Wroes.

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WROE/ROWE research -

I just now, 2PM on 4/20/2012, walked out and in the mailbox was (POSSIBLY/PROBABLY) the registered copy of the 15 August 1852 Manchester, county of Lancaster, St. Ann RC Chapel (on Junction Street) marriage of my great grandparents Thomas Wroe and Mary Ellen Meagher. There are a lots of questions and I need your help in analyzing it, as certain bits do not fit.

The document poses monumental ancestral rethinking.

CONFIRMING DATA - There are bits of data which suggest the document does reflect the noted couple are my paternal great grandparents. The first analysis agrees - 

   A) Marriage at a Catholic Church fits with oral tradition of his marrying a Catholic. 

   B ) The timing, going backwards nine months from 6 June 1853 at sea birth of William Joseph Rowe to Sep 1852 puts the marriage/conception in expected time frame.

   C) The wife's name on record is Mary Mohar, which fits phonetically.

   D) His age at 22 fits with other research, but it may not be true. Hers at 20 years (thus her being born in 1832) fits roughly with other data as her being born 1834. His occupation as fitter up was in mechanical trades, so they seems not to weaken argument that this is our Thomas. 

   E) His residence is given as Bradford, which is roughly OK. Hers is given as 23 Canning Street, Manchester - which I'll have to check.

   F) Previous records research has a Thomas Wroe living with his parents Richard and Margaret Wroe in 1851 UK census, agreeing with his Portland, ME death certificate. 

   G) I'm not sure if Thos (Thomas) Unsworth (performer of marriage) is really a civil servant, or is the name of the Priest. I suspect the former. 

QUESTIONABLE DATA - Weakens the case that this was them -

   A)  Her fathers' name is given as Darby Mohar, brick setter, which doesn't agree with her Maine death certificate as her father being Jeremiah Meagher, a farmer in Ireland. 

   B)  His father is identified here as Thomas Wroe, a grinder in a factory. This disagrees with our Thomas' Maine death certificate which lists his father as Richard Wroe, a weaver. His Maine death certificate also named Margaret Stansfield as his mother.  Richard and Margaret agree with previous research. 

Did they/would they - 

   A) Lie as to their respective fathers' names? if so, why?

   B) WHAT ELSE CAN YOU THINK OF?????? to prove or disprove this was them?

What I plan to do over next few weeks

   1)  Try to obtain St Anne's chapel records, as contrasted with these civil records.

   2)  Search available records for a Thomas Wroe, son of Thomas Wroe in same period. If I find them (and I know I will) this doesn't necessarily mean that this record and its NEW ancestry is correct. 

   3) I'll look for Darby Mohar/Maher/Mahir/Meagher and see what I come up with. 

   4) The witnesses are given as John Park and Margaret Barry, but these may be civil servants at Registrar's office, vice Catholic wedding witnesses. I will pursue verification.

5)      Check on location of 23 Canning Street

In respect to above investigation, I emailed archiveslocalstudies@manchester.gov.uk to see if they could assist with research sources -

Friends,

I am looking to obtain a copy of the 19 August 1852 marriage of my paternal great grandparents, Thomas Wroe and Mary Ellen Meagher at St Ann's Chapel/Church. 

Please identify any links or websites which are of assistance.

Thanks, Don Rowe

Response (automated) of Friday, April 20, 2012 3:21 PM

Thank you for your email.

We aim to answer all enquiries within 10 working days. You may find that your enquiry can be answered by one of our FAQs at:

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/faqs/448/archives_and_local_studies

Please note this is an automatic acknowledgement. If you want to contact us again please email archiveslocalstudies@manchester.gov.uk

The Manchester Room & County Record Office
e-mail: archiveslocalstudies@manchester.gov.uk
web address: http://www.manchester.gov.uk/libraries/arls

The Manchester Room@ City Library (Local Studies)
Elliot House,  151 Deansgate,  Manchester
M3 3WD    0161 234 1979
0161 234 1098 (for microfilm/microfiche bookings)

Greater Manchester County Record Office (with Manchester Archives)
56 Marshall Street,  New Cross,  Manchester
M4 5FU   0161 832 5284

Reply to above request and my response back

--- On Sat, 4/21/12, archiveslocalstudies@manchester.gov.uk <archiveslocalstudies@manchester.gov.uk> wrote:
From: archiveslocalstudies@manchester.gov.uk <archiveslocalstudies@manchester.gov.uk>
Subject: Re: Record of marriage assistance request
To: "Donald Rowe" <rowboatdon@yahoo.com>
Date: Saturday, April 21, 2012, 11:03 AM

Dear Mr. Rowe, 

Thank you for your email. 
You can order a print from the microfilm from us at: 

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/448/archives_and_local_studies/464/church_register_list/4 

Yours sincerely Kevin Bolton 
**********************************************************
The Manchester Room & County Record Office
Follow us on twitter.com/mcrarchives
e-mail: archiveslocalstudies@manchester.gov.uk
web address: http://www.manchester.gov.uk/libraries/arls

The Manchester Room@City Library (Local Studies)
Elliot House
151 Deansgate
Manchester
M3 3WD
0161 234 1979 
0161 234 1098 (for microfilm/microfiche bookings)

Greater Manchester County Record Office (with Manchester Archives)
56 Marshall Street
New Cross
Manchester
M4 5FU
0161 832 5284

NEW - RESEARCH SERVICE. Please see:

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/448/archives_and_local_studies/4260/research_service 

Kevin,

Thanks so much. It turns out these were not my great grandparents. I have and in analyzing the registrar office copy versus other records found they are another couple.

Thanks for your help.

Don Rowe

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The scanned and reassembled copy follows – you may have to display in landscape mode.

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MLFHS: Catholic Churches in Manchester

I am not familiar with Newton Heath, so I am reluctant to suggest possible churches.  Looking at the current Diocesan Almanac, possible ones may be

St Brigit, Grey Mare Lane (from 1879)
St Anne, Higher Openshaw (from 1849)
St Chad, Cheetham (from 1773)
St Patrick, Livesey Street (from 1832)
St Francis, Gorton Monastery (from 1861)
St Mary, Failsworth (from 1845)

All the Catholic churches of the Diocese of Salford are advised to deposit their old registers in the Lancashire Archives (LA) in Preston.  Almost all the registers for the period you seek have been deposited there, so I would suggest that you browse the on-line Lancashire Archive catalogue at www.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/web/?siteid=4528&pageid=30843&e=e   Most of the registers the LA holds are available there on film on open access.

In 1940, the Bishop requested parishes to have their registers filmed so that there was a security copy in case the originals were destroyed by bombing.  Most (but not all) Catholic churches had their registers copied from 1870 (or the foundation of the parish if later) and eventually these films were deposited in the Lancashire Archives.  I think that Manchester Central Library had copies of these films.

Hope this helps

Marriage of Thomas Wroe and Mary Mohar 19 August 1852

Disproving them as family

1)      St Ann’s Chapel in Manchester – a check of the church’s website, and using Google maps reveals this church is remote, on the eastern side of Manchester.

2)      Re-examination of the Maine death certificates of Thomas (Wroe) Rowe and Mary Ellen (Meagher) Rowe verifies his father as Richard Rowe and hers as Jeremiah Casey.

It was an exciting rush to examine all the data, but this couple are not my paternal great grandparents. They may be part of the Wroe extended family, so at least they are an expensive addition to the mountain before me.

MLFHS: Researching Irish ancestors
I don't know if anyone else has picked up on your query.  I know how difficult it can be to research Irish ancestors.  I would suggest you start with http://www.rootsireland.ie.  It may point you in the right direction. If you know which part of Manchester they were in, their local Catholic Parish Church may be one of those whose BMD's have come on to the MLFHS toolbar.

Cousins relationship chart – courtesy Scott Rowe

A patron at the library today shared a source of digitized old British records. British History On Line offers (fee based membership) copies of quite old documents, some the patron accessed on line were from 1360s. The cost is thirty pounds per year, about $45.00. Check it out at

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

Additionally he mentioned Google Books as a source of digitized reference documents.

I plan to investigate both sources further (sometime when I have a spare moment).

MLFHS: Non Gen: Digital back-ups impermanent - a word of warning
Coming to this late as usual. There is a most informative article here. 
https://www.familysearch.org/techtips/2011/09/preserving-family-history-records-digitally> It gives information about two formats (JPEG 2000 and PDFA) specially designed for digital archiving and describes a disc, and tests of it, that holds out the prospect of preserving digital records accurately for centuries (literally!). It is all available now.
MLFHS member – name removed  MLFHS Digest, Vol 87, Issue 41

MLFHS: Non Gen: Digital back-ups impermanent - a word of warning

Thanks for posting the link to the very interesting Family Search article on preserving family history records digitally.  It is a lengthy article and well worth reading.  Naturally with the number of computer experts on MLFHS forum many of the suggestions in the article have already been made here.  Despite that I found a lot that was new to me.  The M-Disc made by Milleniata is described as a breakthrough in archive-grade storage medium with an archival life measured in centuries.  It seems it underwent an accelerated aging test without loss of the stored data.  The only problem I can see will arise in the future with individual family records with any new changes to digital formats.  Who will look after the media refreshment migration i.e. transferring our data and photos to the latest format and, of course, who will do it at the next stage?  The article suggests we prepare our family and posterity for such migration now. Perhaps as someone suggested we can put it in our will? The writer of the article confirms that saving in the cloud is risky both from a storage aspect but also from the danger of hacking.  He suggests that just as today you can buy old gramophone players in order to play old vinyl records, in the future you may well be able to buy old CD/DVD players to play 'old' CD/DVDs in what will then be an old format.  In my opinion this article is well worth reading and it contains lots of useful information and links to freebies for storing and transferring data.
Thanks again    MLFHS member – name removed

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Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Lucania

RMS Lucania

The ship on which my mother sailed to America in July 1906. See HICUZ 86

RMS Campania and Lucania were partly financed by the British Admiralty. An agreement was reached was that the Cunard would receive funding from the Government in return for constructing vessels to admiralty specifications. Also, Cunard would have to agree to the condition that the vessels go on the naval reserve list to serve as armed merchant cruisers when required by the government. The construction contracts were awarded to the Fairfield Shipbuilding and Engineering Company, which at the time was one of Britain’s biggest producers of warships. Plans were soon drawn up for a large, twin-screw steamer powered by triple expansion engines, and construction began in 1891, just 43 days after Cunards' order.

The sisters had the largest triple expansion engines ever fitted to a Cunard ship. These engines were also the largest in the world at the time, and still rank today amongst the largest of the type ever constructed. They represent the limits of development for this kind of technology, which was superseded a few years later by turbine technology. In height, the engines reached from the double-bottom floor of the engine room to the top of the superstructure - almost three stories. Each engine had five cylinders. There were two low pressure cylinders on each engine, each measuring 8´2" (2.48 m) in diameter, and they operated with a stoke of 5' 9" (1.75 m). Together, the engines could generate 31,000 ihp (23,000 kW), which produced an average speed of 22 knots (41 km/h), and a record speed of 23½ knots. Normal operating speed for the engines was about 79 rpm. (Note: a modern automobile engine idles at approximately 10 times that speed)

The two engines were each placed in a separate watertight engine compartment; in case of a hull breach in that area, only one engine room would then be flooded, and the ship would still have power to return to port with the adjacent engine. In addition to this Lucania had 16 transverse watertight compartments, which meant that she could remain afloat with any two compartments flooded.

(It is worthy of note, on the hundredth anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic, that its structure was similar – and advertised similar ability to stay afloat. Many WWII US vessels used the same type power plants.)

In their day, Lucania and her sister offered the most luxurious first-class passenger accommodations available. It was Victorian opulence at its peak—an expression of a highly confident and prosperous age that would never be quite repeated on any other ship. All the first-class public rooms, and the en-suite staterooms of the upper deck, were generally heavily panelled, in oak, satinwood or mahogany; and thickly carpeted. Velvet curtains hung aside the windows and portholes, while the furniture was richly upholstered in matching design. The predominant style was Art Nouveau, although other styles were also in use, such as "French Renaissance" which was applied to the forward first-class entrance hall, whilst the 1st class smoking room was in "Elizabethan style", comprising heavy oak panels surrounding the first open fireplace ever to be used aboard a passenger liner.

Perhaps the finest room in the vessels was the first class dining saloon, over 10' (3.05 m) high and measuring 98' (30 m) long by 63' (19.2 m) wide. Over the central part of this room was a well that rose through three decks to a skylight. It was done in a style described as "modified Italian style", with the a coffered ceiling in white and gold, supported by ionic pillars. The panelled walls were done in Spanish mahogany, inlaid with ivory and richly carved with pilasters and decorations.

Maritime historian Basil Greenhill, in his book Merchant Steamships felt that the interiors of Lucania and Campania represented the ultimate expression of the Victorian age, and remarked that later vessels' interiors degenerated into "grandiose vulgarity, the classical syntax debased to mere jargon".